lock2k
Due a Whippin
This is almost exactly how I feel, with some minor changes. I studied a lot about religion as well due to sheer curiosity and I bet I know more about Christianity than several of my Christian friends.
Religion: Why do you believe? discussion
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Thread: Religion: Why do you believe? discussion
This is almost exactly how I feel, with some minor changes. I studied a lot about religion as well due to sheer curiosity and I bet I know more about Christianity than several of my Christian friends.
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You don't get to answer a question with a question. That's a copout. So I take it you said BS and you're avoiding a proper answer. Gotcha.
A minority of people convert later in life, yes, and from and to all sorts of religions. Plus you know well that most of those happen for marriage reasons where one partner is required to join the religion of the partner. Hardly related to one's personal faith.
If you think it'd be hard to convince a muslim that his belief is wrong, then I'd like to ask you why your's is correct. What's your argument that believers of other religions cannot use for their own argument?
A big one is the historicity of Jesus Christ and the prophecies about Him in the Old Testament. From there, the lives and success of the Apostles in spreading the Gospel and the incredible stories of the saints throughout the eras.
I said it was "hard," but not impossible. Plenty of muslims have seen the truth and converted to Christianity. I was a firm non-believer for most of my life and even looked into Islam at one point, but ultimately Christianity is the one that seems to have the most on its side in terms logical cohesion, historicity, and universality.
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All religions have a historicity of their prophecies and prophets. I just yesterday watched the movie "Little Buddha" that tells the story of Siddharta and how he became the founder of buddhism. Islam has Mohammed. Chinese religions literally have the historicity of their ancestors. Everyone has that story to tell.
And plenty of former Christians have "seen the truth" and converted to other religions.
I know you're about to end this discussion or call me something, but matter of fact is that there is no argument so far that makes Christianity the objectively one true religion. You either choose not to tell so far, or you cannot and the only reason you keep arguing is because you don't want to admit that your faith is based on upbringing, not god-given belief. Excuse me if this sounds harsh, but I'm a seeker, someone who'd love to find true belief. I haven't seen anything here so far that convinces me.
It's not based on upbringing for me, because I only came to the faith fairly recently and grew up agnostic/atheist and honestly spent most of my life actively being against religion and particularly Christianity. If anything, it was my upbringing that had me opposed to Christianity specifically as I was conditioned to believe it was a backwards, "anti-science," and ultimately cruel religion (sort of the sentiment that has been displayed by multiple posters in this thread).
I will fully admit that it still requires faith, but that does not mean blind faith with no evidence. After doing my own truth seeking, and not even originally with the goal of trying to become religious or spiritual but rather to just learn history, I have found no better or more cohesive paradigm than Christianity and gradually came to realize that it is the truth.
Even if it ends up not being the truth and the atheist materialists have it right, it's not like anything in the universe actually matters anyway, so I may as well bet on everlasting life through God being a reality and act accordingly, because if everything is equally meaningless then how any of us choose to live our lives is of no consequence. I think, deep down, however, no human actually believes that is true. I realized I don't have enough blind faith to be an atheist as everything seems to intuitively point towards a creator.
I will share what has happened in my life over the past 6 months and why I am now convinced that God is real.
This is my first post in the Christianity OT. A few days later, I shared the story about praying for the first time and how I was interrupted in a very interesting way. Coincidence, maybe. Very well timed coincidence.
About one week later, I went to go see the Sound Of Freedom (July 22nd, I looked at my bank statements and saw when I purchased the ticket). If you saw it, you know there is a scene where a character says "When God tells you what to do, you do it". I have mentioned before that I work as a musician for a living (primarily a drummer). And yes, this is my full time job and I'm not broke. I usually make $50-70K a year, it fluctuates depending on gigs and other factors, but I am more or less middle class with a profession that many will tell you it's impossible to make money off of (a miracle in itself, but I also worked really hard to get to where I am). Anyway, there's a lot of ups and downs in this line of work, and sometimes I felt like quitting and getting a real job because of a run of bad luck. At the time I would think "the universe is trying to tell me not to do this anymore". I no longer believe in "the universe trying to tell me things", I believe in God. So inspired by the Sound Of Freedom, I asked God during a prayer session "Is this what I am supposed to be doing in life? Really, if I need to be doing something else, please send some sort of sign and I will do it." I don't expect God to answer me right away (I don't think anyone should, that's not how He operates). A few weeks later on August 7th, I get a message from someone asking me if I can fill in on some festival dates. I've been playing with mostly old dudes out here, doing the same old classic rock/blues covers stuff which pays the bills, but really doesn't get you anywhere. My dream job has always been to play drums for a huge touring artist, as that's what can set you up for life and give you a nice retirement fund. So finally, I was asked to drum for an original country artist with songs on the radio and all that. Doesn't mean a whole lot because in Canada almost anyone can get their songs on the radio, but the country scene is great because it's the one style of music that will always require live musicians where you can work as a hired gun. These country festivals have huge headliners playing at them, so it's a good way to get yourself seen by pro players as you open up for them. I nailed the shows and they asked me to stay on as their permanent drummer, which is a great thing because this upcoming summer we'll be likely be playing bigger festivals and doing more shows. Either way, I didn't think much of it but then a week or two passed and I remembered asking God "should I be doing this?". I realized He answered me, and suddenly I was working in the most promising project I've done in over 10 years. That would be another well timed coincidence. Years of my "spirituality, not religion" approach had me really going nowhere in life. I was happy, yes, but once I went out to seek God, it was like a switch flipped and all the sudden, I am out of my professional and spiritual limbo.
Months pass and everything is still going well, but even I start to wonder "maybe it was a coincidence". And more importantly, I really did want to know if God wanted me to be doing more with my life. So I prayed, and once again asked "is there anything else that you want me to do? I feel like I should be doing more." A few days later, I get another text. This one for a country artist who just signed to a subsidiary of Warner Music Canada, saying she needs to put a band together for her upcoming shows/tours etc... Working with someone signed to a label is obviously very beneficial, because when the big artists tour through Canada, they'll often get someone from their label to tour with them. Go look up the roster for country artists on Warner Music, if you are familiar with the current scene, you should recognize a lot of the names. Anyway, simply another coincidence, right?
Other things have happened in my life since then as well which I could type out, as well as events in my life prior to believing in God that looking back upon, I now realize it was Him guiding and protecting me, although at the time I did not know it. But I'll wrap it up here. Maybe this will move the needle for some of you non-believers, but I highly doubt it will. If you aren't ready spiritually to believe, you are not going to believe. I would tell myself that too "if I could see a real sign, or hear some real convincing stories, I would believe". And I would see and hear these things, but my heart was not open to God, so I dismissed and ignored them. I wouldn't be surprised if the non-believers continued to think "well that's just a bunch of coincidences" or "he's lying, he's making this story up" (I can prove most of it with messages by the way, the only thing I can't prove to you is my communications with God through prayer, because obviously there is no way to prove this). I really type this out for the believers in this thread, as they know what I say to be true, they know this is not a fabrication of events for e-clout, I type this out so we can continue to celebrate the existence of God and the wonderful things He will do for you if you allow Him.
I also want to wrap this up by saying, I do not know why God blessed me like this, nor did I expect it. I still feel highly unworthy, as I feel like I did nothing to deserve this with less than 2 weeks of service under my belt. The only reason I can fathom that He did things these for me was to tell others about these events. I promised God after these events that I would tell others what had happened, and I have discussed it with a few of my friends who are religious. It's pretty gross to praise yourself, but I have made a lot of friends throughout the years because I am rational and (supposedly) give out sound advice which people will listen to. I've been told that people respect me because of my "I don't care what others think" attitude, and I have come to realize that is true in some regards, but talking about my new found faith is unbelievably challenging. This is the only reason I can think of that God would bless me like this, because He knows others will listen to me and I am sincere in my beliefs. But I realize that I have to keep telling people beyond my immediate circle of those in my personal life, telling anyone who is willing to listen, that He is real.
This is my first post in the Christianity OT. A few days later, I shared the story about praying for the first time and how I was interrupted in a very interesting way. Coincidence, maybe. Very well timed coincidence.
About one week later, I went to go see the Sound Of Freedom (July 22nd, I looked at my bank statements and saw when I purchased the ticket). If you saw it, you know there is a scene where a character says "When God tells you what to do, you do it". I have mentioned before that I work as a musician for a living (primarily a drummer). And yes, this is my full time job and I'm not broke. I usually make $50-70K a year, it fluctuates depending on gigs and other factors, but I am more or less middle class with a profession that many will tell you it's impossible to make money off of (a miracle in itself, but I also worked really hard to get to where I am). Anyway, there's a lot of ups and downs in this line of work, and sometimes I felt like quitting and getting a real job because of a run of bad luck. At the time I would think "the universe is trying to tell me not to do this anymore". I no longer believe in "the universe trying to tell me things", I believe in God. So inspired by the Sound Of Freedom, I asked God during a prayer session "Is this what I am supposed to be doing in life? Really, if I need to be doing something else, please send some sort of sign and I will do it." I don't expect God to answer me right away (I don't think anyone should, that's not how He operates). A few weeks later on August 7th, I get a message from someone asking me if I can fill in on some festival dates. I've been playing with mostly old dudes out here, doing the same old classic rock/blues covers stuff which pays the bills, but really doesn't get you anywhere. My dream job has always been to play drums for a huge touring artist, as that's what can set you up for life and give you a nice retirement fund. So finally, I was asked to drum for an original country artist with songs on the radio and all that. Doesn't mean a whole lot because in Canada almost anyone can get their songs on the radio, but the country scene is great because it's the one style of music that will always require live musicians where you can work as a hired gun. These country festivals have huge headliners playing at them, so it's a good way to get yourself seen by pro players as you open up for them. I nailed the shows and they asked me to stay on as their permanent drummer, which is a great thing because this upcoming summer we'll be likely be playing bigger festivals and doing more shows. Either way, I didn't think much of it but then a week or two passed and I remembered asking God "should I be doing this?". I realized He answered me, and suddenly I was working in the most promising project I've done in over 10 years. That would be another well timed coincidence. Years of my "spirituality, not religion" approach had me really going nowhere in life. I was happy, yes, but once I went out to seek God, it was like a switch flipped and all the sudden, I am out of my professional and spiritual limbo.
Months pass and everything is still going well, but even I start to wonder "maybe it was a coincidence". And more importantly, I really did want to know if God wanted me to be doing more with my life. So I prayed, and once again asked "is there anything else that you want me to do? I feel like I should be doing more." A few days later, I get another text. This one for a country artist who just signed to a subsidiary of Warner Music Canada, saying she needs to put a band together for her upcoming shows/tours etc... Working with someone signed to a label is obviously very beneficial, because when the big artists tour through Canada, they'll often get someone from their label to tour with them. Go look up the roster for country artists on Warner Music, if you are familiar with the current scene, you should recognize a lot of the names. Anyway, simply another coincidence, right?
Other things have happened in my life since then as well which I could type out, as well as events in my life prior to believing in God that looking back upon, I now realize it was Him guiding and protecting me, although at the time I did not know it. But I'll wrap it up here. Maybe this will move the needle for some of you non-believers, but I highly doubt it will. If you aren't ready spiritually to believe, you are not going to believe. I would tell myself that too "if I could see a real sign, or hear some real convincing stories, I would believe". And I would see and hear these things, but my heart was not open to God, so I dismissed and ignored them. I wouldn't be surprised if the non-believers continued to think "well that's just a bunch of coincidences" or "he's lying, he's making this story up" (I can prove most of it with messages by the way, the only thing I can't prove to you is my communications with God through prayer, because obviously there is no way to prove this). I really type this out for the believers in this thread, as they know what I say to be true, they know this is not a fabrication of events for e-clout, I type this out so we can continue to celebrate the existence of God and the wonderful things He will do for you if you allow Him.
I also want to wrap this up by saying, I do not know why God blessed me like this, nor did I expect it. I still feel highly unworthy, as I feel like I did nothing to deserve this with less than 2 weeks of service under my belt. The only reason I can fathom that He did things these for me was to tell others about these events. I promised God after these events that I would tell others what had happened, and I have discussed it with a few of my friends who are religious. It's pretty gross to praise yourself, but I have made a lot of friends throughout the years because I am rational and (supposedly) give out sound advice which people will listen to. I've been told that people respect me because of my "I don't care what others think" attitude, and I have come to realize that is true in some regards, but talking about my new found faith is unbelievably challenging. This is the only reason I can think of that God would bless me like this, because He knows others will listen to me and I am sincere in my beliefs. But I realize that I have to keep telling people beyond my immediate circle of those in my personal life, telling anyone who is willing to listen, that He is real.
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Have you researched Islam as intensely as you researched Christianity? Maybe it's even "truer"?
I'm sorry, but you really come off as what I've been saying: You grew up a certain way and that's why you believe what you believe. Doesn't matter that you converted from atheism to Christianity. You picked and chose. And probably haven't informed yourself honestly about other religions which you might even prefer over Christianity.
My point here is, and it's not to shit on you: Instead of getting caught up by different churches, we should all acknowledge that belief/faith is best kept for a more general "higher entity". If we do that, there'd be no conflict between religions and everyone would have a chance to be correct. No dick measuring contest who's right. You believe in the Christian god, claiming it to be absolute. A lot of muslims would literally kill themselves for THEIR belief in THEIR god. If we just say "we believe that there's more than what we see", everyone could shake hands. That's what I'd like to say.
Well, when you're convinced of the truth, it's important to not let people wallow in falsehoods. That's how we get to where we are now. It also comes from a genuine desire to see more people realize the truth and begin their own path to salvation. To do what you're proposing is to is to not be firm in your convictions and really kills the point of seeking the truth at all.
Also, a lot of people don't believe in a higher entity at all, so it's clear that we all can't even agree on that point.
It's not like I'm going to go out and pick fights with Muslims or people who believe in other religions (never mind that Christianity claims very different things and thus is unlike most other religions, but I'll try to write more on that later), because that rarely does anything but lead to needless conflict, but often situations arise where one must not budge in their convictions if they are indeed genuine.
lock2k
Due a Whippin
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Yes, that's called "science". You find out about a truth, you present other people hard facts, and from there they can grow.
So far, you haven't written anything that proves your god. That is the problem.
"Science" is not hard facts as I truly hope the last few years have well demonstrated to you. Anyway, I'm not trying to "prove" God to anyone. It does require faith, because the fact of the matter is that there is no conceivable way to "scientifically prove" God. If God is the creator of the universe, whose existence is infinite and beyond the confines of our perceptible reality, then there is simply no way to measure such a thing within our reality. While not a perfect analogy, it would be like trying to "prove" details about the author of a novel simply from the text of said novel.
It is the rightful continuation (fulfillment, actually) of Old Testament Judaism, yes. Far more than modern Judaism is.
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DonDonDonPata
Bridge Burn Man
Science itself is based on unprovable axioms. Look up the failure of logical positivism which occurred 100 years ago. Your belief that the world is rational, that things can be "known", that human senses can derive conclusions about the outside world can all just as easily be reduced to "unprovable"" with the same line of reasoning.
Solipsism has been around since Ancient Greece and it's a dead end sort of skepticism.
Christianity is basically multicultural Judaism, with the examples and teachings of Jesus to guide us.
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Science is hard facts. The last few years have proven that, if anything. You're mixing up politics with science.
But that EXACT same stuff could be told from someone who believes in something different. Do you understand that? What makes YOU correct? If you were sitting in a "religion debate" with candidates from 5 other religions, similar to the presidential candidate debates the Republicans are holding now, and the goal is to convince the audience that your religion is the correct one, what would you tell them that the other candidates cannot say, too?
Science and politics are inseparable.
Anyway, I guess this really just comes down to how you define science and knowledge. As DonDonDonPata already stated, the scientific method itself comes with unprovable presuppositions that you have to take on faith. Furthermore, unless you are replicating experiments yourself, you are taking some else's word for whatever is being claimed.
Regarding your second point, people can come to Christ through many different paths. There isn't one single argument that will convince everyone. But as I mentioned earlier, the historicity of Christ and the resurrection is extremely compelling. When you really look into it, there is far more evidence for it than arguably any other historical event from ancient times, all of which we much more readily take at face value. But even if we had video footage from a time traveler, there would still be plenty who choose to not believe. Everyone has a different threshold of what they will accept as proof or "truth." King of the Atheists, Dawkins himself admitted in an interview that no evidence could ever convince him that God exists.
Ultimately, as with literally everything, you have to hear the arguments and decide for yourself what to believe.
synchronicity
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You're trying to solve a problem with the mind, when the mind itself *is* the problem. You'll never be able to work out all the mysteries of experience. There are no ultimate answers to be found. Looking for "truth" - a static concept within a dynamic and changing universe is an effort in futility, to make no mention of our limited sensory and cognitive abilities in the first place, rendering us incapable of grasping what it is you are seeking to grasp. The only thing that can be truly known is *now*, this moment. All else is speculation, noise.
I understand that you are suffering in the face of your own immortality / its implications. May I suggest that you spend time sitting and breathing. Don't seek to silence the mind at first. Just sit and observe. When thoughts come - as they will, as it seems they do for you in an overbearing manner, notice them, acknowledge them and then release them. Don't dwell on them, and then return your focus again to your breath. If you notice that you've been "carried away" in thought again, don't punish yourself with more judgment, more thought - simply return to giving attention to your breath...in...out...in...out.
I realize that to the mind, an exercise such as this seems utterly pointless. You are literally doing *nothing*. But, ironically, that is entirely the point. You are undergoing a shift from doing (including obsessive thinking) to simply *being*. When you've practiced this long enough (and it should be a regular practice if you wish to benefit...daily), you may be surprised to find a huge smile unexpectedly wash over you along with a sense of peace you may have never previously experienced. (It will be both strange and familiar - something that has always been, but has been drowned out by the noise of thought and attachment to that noise. It will be an "aha" feeling of returning to the nature of pure existence.) The joke of the mind and its ceaseless activity will be seen. The cause of your (perceived) suffering understood. The awareness of thoughts will shift (as will the body) to external *objects* rather than being subjects - things that are known/seen but belong to no one in particular. The mind will continue to function, but it will no longer be a source of distress. Don't dismiss the power of the simple. I wish you peace on your journeys.
This is nonsense. You're making static truth claims about there being no static truth. Self-refuting.
synchronicity
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synchronicity
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The mind is always threatened by its inability to work things out. It *must* know. When faced with its inadequacies and lack of capacity to fully understand, it often latches on to something, *anything* as a way to buffer against the unknown, the unknowable.
I'm just repeating myself, but your post was arguing against the idea of ultimate answers and static truths, yet that itself is a claim on universal truth. You refute yourself.
synchronicity
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If only logic led to truth...to liberation...
One of my favorite quotes is from the *real* Heisenberg (not Walter White
) - "Not only is the universe stranger than we think, it is stranger than we *can* think."All minds seek to comprehend, to explain. That is the nature of mind. All minds fail in that quest.
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No. The speed of light isn't dependend on politics. How electricity is made is not dependent on science. And even the vaccination you hate so much doesn't depend on politics. Science is objective, it's observation, giving us the best possible explanation at a given point in time.
And I'm trying to hear your arguments, but I could replace "Christianity" and "Christ" in your postings with "Islam" and "Mohammed" or "Buddhism" and "Buddha" or else and it'd work just as well. You are the one who, in the beginning, claimed that Christianity is the one correct religion and that god exists, and so I expected something to be convincing of that. If you actually cannot deliver that, I find it disappointing that you're not thinking about your own position. "Maybe he's right, after all? Maybe religion isn't what I thought it is?" or something. To call other religions wrong without being able to argue in favor of yours, that's the kind of behavior that caused so much death in mankind history.
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All observational data must be interpreted. Unless you are the one doing the observing, you are trusting authorities to give you the correct interpretation. What "science" gets funded, published, and dogmatized all depends heavily on politics and who wields power.
That's not to say that certain natural phenomena cannot be observed readily by all of us, but it seems rather foolish to believe that "science is objective" with defining what you mean by "science" very narrowly.
Oh, sorry, I wasn't trying to give you a pitch to become a Christian. There are a lot of great resources that helped convince *me* that I would happily recommend if you are genuinely interested (pop over to the Christianity thread!), but I don't expect I personally could convince you, especially since I don't even really know you.
Of course, I believe that God and Christianity are true, but I also fully admit there is no way to prove it "scientifically." Its claims are supernatural and extend beyond any reality we can currently perceive and thus is beyond what can be known through the scientific method.
synchronicity
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I gave a brief answer in the original post, and I could offer many more words that point to this truth. But it won't mean anything until you find it for yourself. This awareness can happen through great suffering (maybe you're on that path), stillness/silence practice (meditation etc) or ,rarely, spontaneously. You want language/symbols/"facts" to bring this to you - to your mind. However, the mind is the obstacle not the solution. You'll never understand it through that lens. (Logical understanding isn't the same - you can't "know" it, you become / are it, in the end.) I realize that this is very counterintuitive, especially in the time and place...the conditions of the moment in a landscape with a *heavy* bent towards logic and reason. If you want to know, seek to go beyond thought. I gave a brief outline of how to start. If you begin and continue the practice, how to proceed will open itself in an obvious fashion...with time.
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Ok, assume I'm really dumb (shuddup, farnsgirth): Explain it to me like I'm 5. How do you KNOW that the self is an illusion?
Baphomet
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I don't believe in any religion but I do believe there is a higher power. The Universe is so vast and amazing that I do think there is a supreme force we won't really ever understand.
My thoughts go in a kinda similar direction. I do believe there is something, I value the lessons and guidance found in religion, I think it's very important for humans to strive for something bigger, "divine" for the lack of a better wording. But I don't believe any of our religions is "true", there have been too many over the course of time and obviously written by humans, not made by God. That said I still prefer following Judeo-Christian values and teachings to the destructive void its absence causes. I don't "trust" in God though, I don't believe whatever is out there is actively doing anything for me, I think it's in my own hand + random shit happening that can go either way.
synchronicity
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I considered not replying to you again, and I'm going to be honest with you. I don't intend to hurt or offend, and I only say what I say out of respect for authenticity...respect for genuine communication.
I don't believe you are sincere at all. I think you are full of rage and chaos within. (ultimately pain, whatever the cause) I think that you resent any others who find a measure of peace (large or small) in things that you feel are not justified by reason. (your own) Nevertheless, you may one day undergo a shift within. I'm not going to offer you more of my own words regarding this topic. I will however suggest a book of words , many words - words that will prove *nothing* to you, to the skeptic who demands all things make sense in accordance with their particular form of (inevitably biased) reason. No explanation will satisfy, of this I am certain. But if you have a sliver of genuine curiosity or one day develop one, I'd recommend that you begin with 'I Am That' (Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj). It's an excellent starting place if you want pointers for the mind to chew on. But it is entirely unnecessary. Again, I would urge you to begin practicing a form of meditation / stillness. (Focus on the breath probably being the simplest and quite sufficient.)
ProgenitorCastle
Member
I am at a point where I am an atheist. There may or may not be a point where believing people may make a similar leap so I say "live and let live"...you may have your beliefs, just don't trample over my own beliefs or lack of and we are all good