[DonDonDonPata]

​

This is the Christianity OT, a place to discuss christianity by those within the faith, and equally a place for anyone outside the faith who is interested in posting content and questions, serious or humorous. @Nymphae if you could contribute the occasional Based Jesus meme I would be grateful

General thread rules is to be respectful but to not expect reverence, as there's nothing more popular to fight over than spiritual beliefs. Since the topic of christianity is ancient and broad, posing a question should be done with the expectation that you'll receive a broad range of replies, even from people who weren't originally a part of the exchange.

For the sake of discussion, please post sources when you can. This helps readers follow up on statements, to be skeptical but open-minded to learning more, in the spirit of the Bereans in Acts 17 who "received the word with all readiness of mind and searched the scriptures daily whether those things were so."

---

Resources for study and discussion:

THE BIBLE

Useful for learning about christianity from the texts passed down by the early apostles and their witnesses (New Testament) and by the jews (Old Testament). It chronicles the beginning of mankind (Adam and Eve) to the final destiny of mankind, ending in total judgment and eternal life with Jesus (Book of Revelation).

Lot of opinion on which version(s) of the Bible to read. I'll give a quick and neutral guide: New King James (NKJV) is the best all-purpose Bible for reading, for deep study, for poetic flow, and for memorization. English Standard Version (ESV) is my second place. New International Version (NIV) is a very common translation. Avoid "contemporary language" translations and try to pick a version that reflects the accurate language of the original text.

Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages

Online Bible Study Suite. Topical, Greek and Hebrew study tools, plus concordances, commentaries, sermons and devotionals.

biblehub.com

Early Church Fathers and stories of the saints

Early Church Fathers - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

www.ccel.org

Foxe's Book of Martyrs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Amazon.com

Early church writings are invaluable for people who are puzzled by various church denominations, the formation of The Bible's canon, the creeds, or really... anything else about Christ's Church. The church has documented its own historical arguments quite extensively, in no small part because arguments and counterpoints were often exchanged across great distances via written letter. The early church writings are a wealth of insight and wisdom, belonging as a historical and spiritual inheritance to any christian from any denomination.

Audio Bible

Various translations from various sites exist. If you're stuck in front of a computer and want to get more Bible into your daily routine, audio recordings are a useful tool:

King James Version KJV Audio Bible - Listen Free Online

Listen to the King James Version (KJV) Audio Bible free online. Browse audio for Bible Books, Chapters and Verses in the King James Version.

www.biblestudytools.com

 

[Nymphae]

@El Rey tipped me off to Esword software which I've been using for the bible study group I'm in, it's been a great help. Pretty easy and intuitive to use, I've been using it for getting a range of commentaries for whatever our weekly reading is.

It's free for PC and like $15 for Mac

e-Sword: Free Bible Study for the PC

e-Sword is a feature rich and user friendly free Windows app with everything needed to study the Bible in an enjoyable and enriching manner!

www.e-sword.net

 

[Snes nes]

why not I'm in thought about this myself but it might look weird if a anime girl profilepic started the thread.

 

[Snes nes]

@El Rey tipped me off to Esword software which I've been using for the bible study group I'm in, it's been a great help. Pretty easy and intuitive to use, I've been using it for getting a range of commentaries for whatever our weekly reading is.

It's free for PC and like $15 for Mac

e-Sword: Free Bible Study for the PC

e-Sword is a feature rich and user friendly free Windows app with everything needed to study the Bible in an enjoyable and enriching manner!

www.e-sword.net

mac people always get the short end of the stick

 

[Nymphae]

 

[Snes nes]

 

[Snes nes]

anybody use a catholic bible? it has dlc in it like five extra books in it one of them is called maccabees (macks bees.) The protestant version of the bible took them out for some reason don't remember the details I think it had something to do with praying to your ancestors or some weird thing like that. idk

 

[mcz117chief]

Holy war is upon us!

anybody use a catholic bible? it has dlc in it like five extra books in it one of them is called maccabees (macks bees.) The protestant version of the bible took them out for some reason don't remember the details I think it had something to do with praying to your ancestors or some weird thing like that. idk

I'm a Catholic theologian. We call these deuterocanonical books.

 

[Snes nes]

lol then lets just stop it right there.

edit; I'm not the one that remembers a whole bunch about theology. I found it kinda confusing at times.

 

[DonDonDonPata]

anybody use a catholic bible? it has dlc in it like five extra books in it one of them is called maccabees (macks bees.) The protestant version of the bible took them out for some reason don't remember the details I think it had something to do with praying to your ancestors or some weird thing like that. idk

Both the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox use the apocrypha. Protestants are the odd ones out. Any Christian from any church should feel comfortable using the apocrypha, as the history of those books is very well documented and understood. Read the original counter arguments from the Protestant reformers if one thinks they should be omitted; both sides of the argument are readily available to read.

The worry about "Praying to the ancestors" is a theological misunderstanding of venerating the saints, also done in both catholic and Eastern traditions since the early days of the church. While I don't see a genuine need/necessity to praying to saints, Protestants should still learn about the saints from church history and try to emulate their holy lives. This is why I included some extrabiblical resources from Church fathers in the OT.

 

[teezzy]

What's the biggest different between Orthodox and Catholic?

 

[El Rey]

@El Rey tipped me off to Esword software which I've been using for the bible study group I'm in, it's been a great help. Pretty easy and intuitive to use, I've been using it for getting a range of commentaries for whatever our weekly reading is.

It's free for PC and like $15 for Mac

e-Sword: Free Bible Study for the PC

e-Sword is a feature rich and user friendly free Windows app with everything needed to study the Bible in an enjoyable and enriching manner!

www.e-sword.net

For PC users I have a bunch of free translations/addons if anyone is interested.

 

[Snes nes]

Posted by
u/humming-rock
5 hours ago

Fuck religious parents​

In the airport there is a family sitting across from me. Both parents obese. One has a T-shirt that says Come And Take It.
The kid said something I didn't catch and the mom lost her shit. She says:
'That is a BAD word. Don't ever say that word again. That word makes Jesus angry. You don't want want to make Jesus angry do you?'
'No.'
'Say sorry to Jesus'
'Sorry, but-'
'Jesus is in the sky watching you'
Kid points up at the ceiling. 'There's nobody there'
'Don't ever say that word again. That is a bad word'
Then the mom makes him promise to never say the word again before giving him his iPad and headphones.

As a parent I can't describe how disgusted I am by this fucked up interaction. But it's also very telling. Why would you invent a sky daddy except to help you in coercing people?
Poor kid. Still smarter than his mom but for how long?


_+

Posted by
u/humming-rock
5 hours ago

Fuck religious parents​

In the airport there is a family sitting across from me. Both parents obese. One has a T-shirt that says Come And Take It.
The kid said something I didn't catch and the mom lost her shit. She says:
'That is a BAD word. Don't ever say that word again. That word makes Jesus angry. You don't want want to make Jesus angry do you?'
'No.'
'Say sorry to Jesus'
'Sorry, but-'
'Jesus is in the sky watching you'
Kid points up at the ceiling. 'There's nobody there'
'Don't ever say that word again. That is a bad word'
Then the mom makes him promise to never say the word again before giving him his iPad and headphones.

As a parent I can't describe how disgusted I am by this fucked up interaction. But it's also very telling. Why would you invent a sky daddy except to help you in coercing people?
Poor kid. Still smarter than his mom but for how long?
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
shady guy in the alley; how much crack ya want.
redditor; I'll take the whole skid!
shady guy in the alley; that'll be 2000 bucks ya got the dough?
redditor; yeah

pulls out his credit card.

shady guy; well looks like you get your crack and i'll get your entire bank account
redditor; its a deal.

(I realize that this is a kinda out there for a religious area if a mod wants to edit this then do so.)

 

[Snes nes]

Both the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox use the apocrypha. Protestants are the odd ones out. Any Christian from any church should feel comfortable using the apocrypha, as the history of those books is very well documented and understood. Read the original counter arguments from the Protestant reformers if one thinks they should be omitted; both sides of the argument are readily available to read.

The worry about "Praying to the ancestors" is a theological misunderstanding of venerating the saints, also done in both catholic and Eastern traditions since the early days of the church. While I don't see a genuine need/necessity to praying to saints, Protestants should still learn about the saints from church history and try to emulate their holy lives. This is why I included some extrabiblical resources from Church fathers in the OT.

I don't understand what the problem is with it we put the statues on our church as a sign of respect not worship. Saint Francis is not the god of bunny rabbits like what is this the greek mythology where there are thousands of minor gods or something?

 

[Snes nes]

Who is this Jesus guy and why does everyone want me to find him?​

I have been searching for someone named Jesus, because people say my life would be better if I found him. I have looked everywhere and still cannot find this guy. Anyway, each and every one of you seem to have found a way to live good lives without finding this dude. Could I get some tips?

Maybe you are in the wrong neighborhood. I got a Jesus next door he don't speak English though. Nice guy. Just wish he didn't keep a rooster 15 feet from my bedroom window.

 

[Snes nes]

If you've ever debated a Christian, you'd immediately notice this: if you "win" an argument, they won't change their minds. They'll simply move on to a different argument. This isn't because they are stupid. Instead, this suggests that their reasons for being Christian are not based on rhetorical logic. I suspect that the reasons for people being Christian have more to do with family, tradition, belonging and identity than anything else.

I think he figured it out guys

 

[Snes nes]

man I don't think we even need nymphae to post stuff here all we have to do is browse r/athiesm and repost it here. What a treasure trove

 

[Zefah]

I didn't grow up practicing any religion and went through a cringe-worthy militant atheist phase, but the older I get the more I find myself drawn to religion and specifically Christianity. Maybe it's just a function of the increasingly dark times we live in. I wouldn't say I'm a practicing Christian, but I've been watching more and more stuff on YouTube.

One thing that I really enjoyed listening through last year was the audiobook version of Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis. The one I listened to seems to have been taken down, but there are other uploads. I ended up buying the book and reading through it as well.




This Orthodox chap also has some interesting content on his channel:

 

[Yawnson]

I didn't grow up practicing any religion and went through a cringe-worthy militant atheist phase, but the older I get the more I find myself drawn to religion and specifically Christianity. Maybe it's just a function of the increasingly dark times we live in. I wouldn't say I'm a practicing Christian, but I've been watching more and more stuff on YouTube.

One thing that I really enjoyed listening through last year was the audiobook version of Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis. The one I listened to seems to have been taken down, but there are other uploads. I ended up buying the book and reading through it as well.




This Orthodox chap also has some interesting content on his channel:

Came to faith only a few years ago myself, always had just a surface level belief before tha5. Ill pray for your journey wherever that leads you.

 

[Snes nes]

I didn't grow up practicing any religion and went through a cringe-worthy militant atheist phase, but the older I get the more I find myself drawn to religion and specifically Christianity. Maybe it's just a function of the increasingly dark times we live in. I wouldn't say I'm a practicing Christian, but I've been watching more and more stuff on YouTube.

One thing that I really enjoyed listening through last year was the audiobook version of Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis. The one I listened to seems to have been taken down, but there are other uploads. I ended up buying the book and reading through it as well.




This Orthodox chap also has some interesting content on his channel:

welcome aboard the spaceship on a journey with a unspecified ending to it the destination is planet earth but arrival time is unknown

 

[Snes nes]

https://www.youtube.com/c/BrianHoldsworth/videos

this guy is pretty good very likeable dude.

 

[Mickmrly]

What's the biggest different between Orthodox and Catholic?

I haven't researched it very heavily, but some things I know are that Orthodox churches are divided among different countries: Greek Orthodox, Latvian Orthodox, etc. Also they apparently have very long masses on Sunday, like 3 hours long. Catholic Mass is usually one hour, unless it's Christmas or Easter, when the length goes up to 1 and a half hours, with people who don't usually go to church all crowding in to the church with seats outside the church, requiring one to get to mass at least half an hour or more before the mass starts in order to get a seat. Fun times.

For context I usually go to Catholic mass once a week, but on Easter and Christmas it is not as enjoyable as usual because of the intense crowding (and longer mass time).

 

[CloudNull]

I'm baptist. Was a militant atheist who eventually turned agnostic, then got baptized in 2016. One of the best decisions I've ever made. I have read all the books that the atheist love to slobber over. Funny thing as the more I learned the more I turned to god.

I feel that as you discover more truths in the world the brighter the lord shines. You see the rules that hold the universe together and how they are resounding flags that point you back to him. It's humbling and inspiring.

 

[Nymphae]

 

[Snes nes]

crow;
nevermore nevermore

 

[DonDonDonPata]

I'm baptist. Was a militant atheist who eventually turned agnostic, then got baptized in 2016. One of the best decisions I've ever made. I have read all the books that the atheist love to slobber over. Funny thing as the more I learned the more I turned to god.

I feel that as you discover more truths in the world the brighter the lord shines. You see the rules that hold the universe together and how they are resounding flags that point you back to him. It's humbling and inspiring.

That's an inspiring testimony, brother. Coming from a different direction in life (I grew up in the church and struggled to follow it devoutly), the more I learn about natural sciences, about human behavior, about pretty much anything that can be learned, the more I learn about God. I have experienced the truth of verses like "How great are Your works, O LORD, how deep are Your thoughts!" (Ps. 92:5) and "The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork. Day unto day utters speech, And night unto night reveals knowledge." (Ps 19:1-2).

I feel this way about history as well. The more I learn about history, especially the Christian history of the last 2000 years, I see the guiding hand of Jesus, doing what he promised from his position at the right hand of God. Long ago I learned about the concepts of "paradigm" and "world view", and if you view the world through the lens of christianity, there's a vividness to topics that wasn't there before.

 

[Nymphae]

I've been watching debates lately, this John Lennox dude is a fantastic debater

I had to pause this at this part, where the moderator is reading an excerpt from Dawkin's The God Delusion, describing imagining a world without religion

This kind of argumentation was pretty powerful to me a decade ago. Now? All I can hear is the other side Richard doesn't foresee, the world we live in right now. Everything he charges at religion here is with us now, coming from the secularists, merely with different justifications.

I'll paraphrase a bit of it here just to give an idea

no terrorist attacks, no crusades or witch hunts, no foreign wars, no shiny suited bouffant haired televangelists fleecing gullible people of their money, no taliban to blow up ancient statues..."

And I'll stop there. Every one of those things has a modern parallel with the woke left.

 

[DonDonDonPata]

I've been watching debates lately, this John Lennox dude is a fantastic debater

I had to pause this at this part, where the moderator is reading an excerpt from Dawkin's The God Delusion, describing imagining a world without religion

This kind of argumentation was pretty powerful to me a decade ago. Now? All I can hear is the other side Richard doesn't mention, the world we live in right now. Everything he charges at religion here is with us now, coming from the secularists, merely with different justifications.

Anthony Flew's book is worth reading for any atheists who want to hear a genuine critique of nuAtheism from the mind of a former atheist

He doesn't make the case for Jesus or the christian paradigm, but he dismantles all of the Dawkins fedora-tipping arguments that became very popular online over the last 20 years.

I'd argue that Dawkins and most modern "atheists" are more or less just anti-christians, not good atheists. They don't present a workable atheism to the listener, certainly not something on the level of previous atheist philosophers. They don't present an alternative to religion. They don't offer a more robust worldview or a more cohesive way of life. Instead, they tear down strawmen and then chuckle "isn't that silly and isn't science so much smarter?" It's popcorn ideology for people who already didn't like christianity.

 

[Nymphae]

I've heard of Flew but haven't read anything of his yet. In a similar vein I have read a bit of Lee Strobel, former atheist and investigative journalist, and I've really been enjoying some content I've seen from J. Warner Wallace, former atheist and crime scene investigator (who shares my birthday and converted to Christianity at about the age I am now, I just found that amusing)

 

[DonDonDonPata]

I've heard of Flew but haven't read anything of his yet. In a similar vein I have read a bit of Lee Strobel, former atheist and investigative journalist, and I've really been enjoying some content I've seen from J. Warner Wallace, former atheist and crime scene investigator (who shares my birthday and converted to Christianity at about the age I am now, I just found that amusing)

CS Lewis' book 'Mere Christianity', Athanasius' 'On The Incarnation', and GK Chesterton's 'Everlasting Man' are good books in the same vein as Lee Strobel's Case For Christ. Keep up the learning! It sounds like you're already digging in voraciously to a lot of different sources.

 

[Nymphae]

I have a few C.S. Lewis apologetics books and I really enjoy the way he writes.

Right now I've just been watching a lot of lectures and debates because I can put them on in the background while I play Elden Ring lol.

I've noticed the atheists don't really have these high profile debate engagements anymore, most of the ones I've seen come from around the time the 4 horsemen were hot. Perhaps because you can only say the same arguments so many times idk. But it's interesting to me how those guys have cooled off.

 

[Snes nes]

I'm baptist. Was a militant atheist who eventually turned agnostic, then got baptized in 2016. One of the best decisions I've ever made. I have read all the books that the atheist love to slobber over. Funny thing as the more I learned the more I turned to god.

I feel that as you discover more truths in the world the brighter the lord shines. You see the rules that hold the universe together and how they are resounding flags that point you back to him. It's humbling and inspiring.

welcome abroad cloud-san

 

[Zefah]

I've been watching debates lately, this John Lennox dude is a fantastic debater

I had to pause this at this part, where the moderator is reading an excerpt from Dawkin's The God Delusion, describing imagining a world without religion

This kind of argumentation was pretty powerful to me a decade ago. Now? All I can hear is the other side Richard doesn't foresee, the world we live in right now. Everything he charges at religion here is with us now, coming from the secularists, merely with different justifications.

I'll paraphrase a bit of it here just to give an idea



And I'll stop there. Every one of those things has a modern parallel with the woke left.

Yeah, those words from Dawkin's sure do ring hollow today.

I imagine they also rang hollow for anyone who had experienced the horrors of Communist revolutions and Stalin's rule as well.

It sure was easy to blame all the problems in the world on religion in the 90s and 00s, but by now it's much clearer to me that all of the problems like the ones you listed out, are inherent to humanity and will attempt to manifest themselves through whatever means are available.

 

[Zefah]

I have a few C.S. Lewis apologetics books and I really enjoy the way he writes.

Right now I've just been watching a lot of lectures and debates because I can put them on in the background while I play Elden Ring lol.

I've noticed the atheists don't really have these high profile debate engagements anymore, most of the ones I've seen come from around the time the 4 horsemen were hot. Perhaps because you can only say the same arguments so many times idk. But it's interesting to me how those guys have cooled off.

According to Peter Boghossian at least, who was part of the atheist movement in a big way, the whole scene got devoured by the forces of wokeness. Basically, the atheist movement set the scene for secular fanaticism to flourish and then let it destroy them.

 

[Nymphae]

This is another exchange I found really interesting, Lennox responds to something Dawkins says by saying "You rightly expect me to differentiate between types of atheists, some are capable of evil and some are not, I simply want you to differentiate between theists in the same manner, the teaching of Jesus do not support extremism"

Dawkins responds with the following



Paraphrasing him here: I think there is a logical path from religiosity to justification for evils.....if you really really believe, then it's possible for an intelligent rational person to do hideous things

"I cannot conceive of a logical path that would lead one to say that because I am an atheist, therefore it is rational for me to kill, or murder, or be cruel or do some horrible thing"

First of all he's arguing with phantoms here and ignoring Lennox's point that a bloodthirsty extremist isn't really following the teachings of Jesus. And even if they were, his argument ignores the differentiation between extremists and non extremists that he enjoys highlighting when atheists have the finger pointed at them.

And I think his argument is absurd anyway. Imo the loss of shared cultural Christian values has led directly to a situation in which people are free to decide what they think is moral. Laughing at the misfortunes of those who merely disagree with you on some philosophical or political idea? Seeking to eliminate a person's ability to work in society and ruin them socially, mentally, physically? Gleefully wishing for the deaths of others on public platforms? This is all the behaviour of the godless left, so don't tell me you can't conceive of a way that someone might be able to rationalize committing evils in the name of an ideology that opposes and has nothing to do with theism.

In light of the past couple years, his line "if you really really believe, then it's possible for an intelligent rational person to do hideous things" made me laugh. Yes, it's possible for theists as well as atheists to completely lose their mind in the din of a herd and do irrational things.

 

[DonDonDonPata]

This is another exchange I found really interesting, Lennox responds to something Dawkins says by saying "You rightly expect me to differentiate between types of atheists, some are capable of evil and some are not, I simply want you to differentiate between theists in the same manner, the teaching of Jesus do not support extremism"

Dawkins responds with the following



Paraphrasing him here: I think there is a logical path from religiosity to justification for evils.....if you really really believe, then it's possible for an intelligent rational person do do hideous things

"I cannot conceive of a logical path that would lead one to say that because I am an atheist, therefore it is rational for me to kill, or murder, or be cruel or do some horrible thing"

First of all he's arguing with phantoms here and ignoring Lennox's point that a bloodthirsty extremist isn't really following the teachings of Jesus. And even if they were, his argument ignores the differentiation between extremists and non extremists that he enjoys highlighting when atheists have the finger pointed at them.

And I think his argument is absurd anyway. Imo the loss of shared cultural Christian values has led directly to a situation in which people are free to decide what they think is moral. Laughing at the misfortunes of those who merely disagree with you on some philosophical or political idea? Seeking to eliminate a person's ability to work in society and ruin them socially, mentally, physically? Gleefully wishing for the deaths of others on public platforms? This is all the behaviour of the godless left, so don't tell me you can't conceive of a way that someone might be able to rationalize committing evils in the name of an ideology that opposes and has nothing to do with theism.

In light of the past couple years, his line "if you really really believe, then it's possible for an intelligent rational person do do hideous things" made me laugh. Yes, it's possible for theists as well as atheists to completely lose their mind in the din of a herd and do irrational things.

Atheism is also the denial of transcendental, objective Law that defines our morality. Atheism can only lean on "natural law" which is quite cruel. There is no logical reason to follow social laws if they aren't based on absolute truths, and if there aren't any absolute truths, then the best social laws (to an atheist) are the expedient ones, the ones that bring about the maximum happiness, life, invention, peacefulness, etc

That "social expediency" is at the heart of all communist regimes. Atheism has no moral standing on such matters since "atheism isn't a religion hurr durr", it cannot make any moral judgments. But for some reason, atheists pull the hat trick of holding God to contradictions they've found in God's religion, then setting themselves up as more moral because they reject this "silly religious morality".

It's the same trick pulled in politics: accuse your opponent and tear down their argument, to the point where you don't have to present any arguments yourself. There's a reason why "burden of proof" has been such an enduring talking point on the atheist side.

 

[Snes nes]

Atheism is also the denial of transcendental, objective Law that defines our morality. Atheism can only lean on "natural law" which is quite cruel. There is no logical reason to follow social laws if they aren't based on absolute truths, and if there aren't any absolute truths, then the best social laws (to an atheist) are the expedient ones, the ones that bring about the maximum happiness, life, invention, peacefulness, etc

That "social expediency" is at the heart of all communist regimes. Atheism has no moral standing on such matters since "atheism isn't a religion hurr durr", it cannot make any moral judgments. But for some reason, atheists pull the hat trick of holding God to contradictions they've found in God's religion, then setting themselves up as more moral because they reject this "silly religious morality".

It's the same trick pulled in politics: accuse your opponent and tear down their argument, to the point where you don't have to present any arguments yourself. There's a reason why "burden of proof" has been such an enduring talking point on the atheist side.

"natural law" you mean cave man logic? Also do you know about transcendalism?

 

[DonDonDonPata]

"natural law" you mean cave man logic?

No I mean educated materialist logic, that everything is derived from unthinking natural rules.

Also do you know about transcendalism?

Yes some nice ideas but the universalism and belief that humans are fundamentally Good are two things I disagree with.

 

[Snes nes]

No I mean educated materialist logic, that everything is derived from unthinking natural rules.


Yes some nice ideas but the universalism and belief that humans are fundamentally Good are two things I disagree with.

i like to call it american buddhism.

 

[Nymphae]

No I mean educated materialist logic, that everything is derived from unthinking natural rules.

I like what Lennox was saying along those lines, he uses an analogy of a woman baking a cake and there being a panel of the worlds top scientists invited to test it, and tell us everything about it. They tell us literally every mechanical thing they possibly can, from each discipline, from the particulars of chemistry to how it will taste, etc.

But then they are asked, why did she bake it?

You literally cannot answer this question with science. It's unobtainable information. It needs to be revealed to you, intentionally by the person, and you will never be able to figure out that aspect of the universe scientifically.