[GreyHorace]

Two developers that started roughly the same time and went on dominate the Western rpg scene in subsequent years.

Yet for some reason one of them has always attracted a niche audience (Bioware) while the other is a huge deal even to casual gamers with the release of it's titles being huge events (Bethesda).

I always thought Bioware was a huge deal, even way back when they started out with awesome pc rpgs like Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 and Neverwinter Nights. And when they got their hands on a popular IP like Star Wars to make a classic rpg on consoles (Knights of the Old Republic), I thought they finally hit it big in mainstream gaming. Imagine my surprise when I read interviews from some former Bioware devs that with all their success, they still struggled to stay afloat and readily accepted the acquisition offer from Electronic Arts.

And well... I don't need to tell all of you what happened. With all the high profile flops they've had in recent years (Anthem, Mass Effect Andromeda), Bioware are now a shell of their former self. Most of their senior staff who made the company great are now gone and what we have are a bunch of newbie developers whose next project (Dragon Age Dread Wolf) is notable for the fact that a troon is the lead designer.

Contrast this with Bethesda, who like Bioware became known in the gaming world with their PC rpgs in the 90s. While the first two games in the Elder Scrolls series was huge among PC gamers, the release of Morrowind on the OG Xbox would win them an audience among console gamers. And with their acquisition of the Fallout franchise, every Bethesda rpg feels like an event. You only need to look at the hype surrounding their latest project, Starfield, to see what a big deal they are.

I never played a Bethesda rpg before until I got Skyrim in 2011after watching all the insane hype around it. I enjoyed it, and I can certainly see why their games have garnered such a huge fanbase. But still, it confuses me as to why Bethesda was able to become such a huge deal in the gaming world and yet Bioware languished behind.

What's your take D-Pad?

 

[O-N-E]

They started releasing laughable shit.

Bethesda got big enough that when it entered that phase, it could take a decent amount of hits.

 

[HE1NZ]

Bioware niche? I remember it differently. I think prior to Fallout 3 and Skyrim Bethesda was more niche than Bioware.

Bethesda was focused on staying independent. It is (until recently) its own small publisher (via Zenimax) and works on their own properties. They bought Fallout instead of getting hired to do one. I think Todd said that if Morrowind wasn't a hit Bethesda would fold. It did well and they banked on it because they owned and published it themselves.

Bioware was making licensed D&D games, Lucasarts and Xbox partnerships. It made them dependent and easy prey to EA. Big name, but ultimately a developer for hire.

 

[Snes nes]

One simple reason

Bioware<bethseda

 

[GreyHorace]

Bioware niche? I remember it differently. I think prior to Fallout 3 and Skyrim Bethesda was more niche than Bioware.

Bethesda was focused on staying independent. It is (until recently) its own small publisher (via Zenimax) and works on their own properties. They bought Fallout instead of getting hired to do one. I think Todd said that if Morrowind wasn't a hit Bethesda would fold. It did well and they banked on it because they owned and published it themselves.

Bioware was making licensed D&D games, Lucasarts and Xbox partnerships. It made them dependent and easy prey to EA. Big name, but ultimately a developer for hire.

Thanks for the info. I have to applaud Bethesda in this case for staying independent and banking on their own properties. It paid off big time for them in the end.

And you're right, while Bioware did develop their own IPs, they released them in partnership with Microsoft (Jade Empire, Mass Effect) or while under EA (Dragon Age).

 

[John Day]

Might have been their good teams left and scattered in the industry.

Sometimes we forget that individuals, abd not studio names, are the ones that make the games.

 

[Arkam]

I thought they were pretty comparable for a while. Then Bioware got bought by EA and the downfall began. Havent been impressed with anyting they have done since ME2. Also Bioware seemed to be too dependent on the exceptional talent of a few people. SO when they left when they were sick of EA, they were dunzo. Meanwhile Bethesda seems to be staying pretty consistent (overall) and from what my buddies there say, they operate like an over funded start up to this day.

 

[DonDonDonPata]

Bethesda was/is a tech company.

BioWare was/is a writer's company.

Bethesda made its name with massive fantasy simulations built in their own engine with its own lore, something along the lines of Wizardry which fizzled out around the same time Bethesda rose to prominence with Morrowind.

whereas BioWare was trying to replicate the 80s PnP experience in clunky top-down engines. They kinda-sorta tried the multiplayer D&D thing in their games but ultimately they were known for their writers and faithful RPG mechanics, not the game engines or tech.

Over time, Bethesda picked up more tech-oriented companies like Arkane (interesting use of physics) and id (graphical wizards) while BioWare bled out its writers and D&D vets. Bethesda leaned into their strengths and BioWare lost the only strengths that made them worth paying attention to.

 

[GreyHorace]

Might have been their good teams left and scattered in the industry.

Sometimes we forget that individuals, abd not studio names, are the ones that make the games.

I thought they were pretty comparable for a while. Then Bioware got bought by EA and the downfall began. Havent been impressed with anyting they have done since ME2. Also Bioware seemed to be too dependent on the exceptional talent of a few people. SO when they left when they were sick of EA, they were dunzo. Meanwhile Bethesda seems to be staying pretty consistent (overall) and from what my buddies there say, they operate like an over funded start up to this day.

Yeah. From what I gathered there were a handful of individuals who were responsible for Bioware's success. But once they left the company was DOA.

Bethesda on the other hand, seems to have kept their core intact. Say what you will about Todd Howard. Despite some negative criticism pinned on him the man has helmed their biggest hits and will continue to do so until he bombs so spectacularly then they'll replace him.

Bethesda was/is a tech company.

BioWare was/is a writer's company.

Bethesda made its name with massive fantasy simulations built in their own engine with its own lore, something along the lines of Wizardry which fizzled out around the same time Bethesda rose to prominence with Morrowind.

whereas BioWare was trying to replicate the 80s PnP experience in clunky top-down engines. They kinda-sorta tried the multiplayer D&D thing in their games but ultimately they were known for their writers and faithful RPG mechanics, not the game engines or tech.

Over time, Bethesda picked up more tech-oriented companies like Arkane (interesting use of physics) and id (graphical wizards) while BioWare bled out its writers and D&D vets. Bethesda leaned into their strengths and BioWare lost the only strengths that made them worth paying attention to.

That's probably the most accurate breakdown I've seen. Once their core group of writers left Bioware went to shit. Now we're left with a bunch of SJW troons with a massive chip on their shoulder who can't wait to lecture us on the evils of the white patriarchy.

But to be frank, I think Bioware's reputation as storytellers is massively overblown. They can't claim to be the kings of storytelling when developers like Obsidian Entertainment and CDProjektRed have them beat in that department.

 

[Arkam]

But to be frank, I think Bioware's reputation as storytellers is massively overblown. They can't claim to be the kings of storytelling when developers like Obsidian Entertainment and CDProjektRed have them beat in that department.

IDK. The writing in The Old Republic, ME and ME2 was DAMN good. ME is one of the few non SW scifi universe to ever suck me in hard. Easily rivals Obsidian in my book (and I think they WERE great).

 

[TaySan]

Bioware hasn't released a quality title since Mass Effect 3. Also, their games dont have the same level of mod support as Bethesda

 

[Arkam]

Bioware hasn't released a quality title since Mass Effect 3. Also their games font have the same level of mod support as Bethesda

Where did you start the ME franchise? Cuz I thought ME3 was the franchise equivalent of a vesicostomy. Just was not fun or memorable. But if it was a person's first ME I can see how it felt good. For me ME was the best game and ME2 was the best story.... ME3 was just there.

 

[TaySan]

Where did you start the ME franchise? Cuz I thought ME3 was the franchise equivalent of a vesicostomy. Just was not fun or memorable. But if it was a person's first ME I can see how it felt good. For me ME was the best game and ME2 was the best story.... ME3 was just there.

I started from the first game and the shitty ending aside I enjoyed 3. The combat was refined over 2 and I liked how the crew actually interacted with each other, they actually move around the ship with Garrus and James talking in the mess hall or Liara talking to the joker. It made the ship feel alive rather than the characters waiting in their corners for the game to decide "Oh you can have a talk with Shepard now".

The little details like that made a difference for immersion and are one that's the easiest to replay for me. : P

 

[Grinchy]

Bethesda made better games. It's a subjective thing to say, but to me it seems so clear that it feels objective.

That first Dragon Age felt like something very special. After playing FFXII, a more advanced "Gambit system" was fucking bliss. But then they did what most of these companies do when they find some success.

They start expanding too much too fast and now there are too many cooks in the kitchen. And then after a while they were only hiring cooks who didn't make very good food, but had purple hair or the right skin color. And now they are a joke.

 

[GreyHorace]

IDK. The writing in The Old Republic, ME and ME2 was DAMN good. ME is one of the few non SW scifi universe to ever suck me in hard. Easily rivals Obsidian in my book (and I think they WERE great).

I'll give you that the first Mass Effect had some great world building coupled with a perfectly paced plot. But it still suffered from Bioware's Messiah plot template that they've used to death in their other games.

And as much as I liked ME2, it lost a lot of the atmosphere from ME1 and was much too action paced. For comparison, I'd say Mass Effect is classic Star Trek while ME2 is JJ Abrams era Trek.

They start expanding too much too fast and now there are too many cooks in the kitchen. And then after a while they were only hiring cooks who didn't make very good food, but had purple hair or the right skin color. And now they are a joke.

This right here. After the buyout by EA, I thought it was insane that Bioware was releasing their titles at such an early release schedule. Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age 2 just 2 years after their previous entries? In my mind rpgs should have at least 3-4 years of development if they're going to be any good.

 

[HE1NZ]

Where did you start the ME franchise? Cuz I thought ME3 was the franchise equivalent of a vesicostomy. Just was not fun or memorable. But if it was a person's first ME I can see how it felt good. For me ME was the best game and ME2 was the best story.... ME3 was just there.

I played all three at the same time and there's nothing about ME3 that's makes it worse than the other two. ME2 gets a slight edge but they are all consistent. You're getting swayed by public opinion.

 

[DonDonDonPata]

But to be frank, I think Bioware's reputation as storytellers is massively overblown. They can't claim to be the kings of storytelling when developers like Obsidian Entertainment and CDProjektRed have them beat in that department.

Maybe so, maybe they weren't all that great. tbh as i get older I realize the "incredible writing" of games like BG 2 or Neverwinter: Mask of Betrayer wasn't all that amazing, it was about on the same tier as D&D novels. Which isn't awful, but it isn't high-end literature or something, either.

Ya gotta consider, especially by the crescendo of BG 2, that the insane volume and the overall consistency of 1,000s of lines of dialogue... all meshed into a consistent game world. That wasn't being done elsewhere like Bioware was doing.

 

[Torrent of Pork]

I played all three at the same time and there's nothing about ME3 that's makes it worse than the other two. ME2 gets a slight edge but they are all consistent. You're getting swayed by public opinion.

You had to be there at the launch of ME3 with those original endings. There was legitimate, "What the fuck did I just waste years of anticipation over," energy.

 

[HE1NZ]

You had to be there at the launch of ME3 with those original endings. There was legitimate, "What the fuck did I just waste years of anticipation over," energy.

Perhaps. I played when free DLC ending expansion was released.

 

[Kadayi]

I started from the first game and the shitty ending aside I enjoyed 3. The combat was refined over 2 and I liked how the crew actually interacted with each other, they actually move around the ship with Garrus and James talking in the mess hall or Liara talking to the joker. It made the ship feel alive rather than the characters waiting in their corners for the game to decide "Oh you can have a talk with Shepard now".

The little details like that made a difference for immersion and are one that's the easiest to replay for me. : P

You say that, but so much of that conversation in both ME2 & ME3 was devoid of any player agency. Sure it was good that the characters interacted, but if you did choose to speak to them then it should have cut to the conversation screen and given you options.

You had to be there at the launch of ME3 with those original endings. There was legitimate, "What the fuck did I just waste years of anticipation over," energy.

Agreed. I never touched ME again after that. Absolute mismanagement with the entire thing. The only aspect ME3 got right was the combat IMHO. Had a lot of fun with that and the CO_Op mode.

Did pick up the recent remaster, but still working my way through ME1 atm, though it's on the backburner.

 

[Torrent of Pork]

Perhaps. I played when free DLC ending expansion was released.

Spoiler: Spoilers for the end of ME3

The 2nd cutscene that shows the relays being rebuilt didn't exist. For all anybody knew they were just gone, with the vast amount of the galaxy's military stranded in Sol. There were no Synthesis or Defiance endings, just Control and Destroy, one of which genocides an entire race of people who are finally an ally after 300 years. As far as anybody knew the Normandy was marooned on a raw planet forever, and the straw that broke the camel's back was the photoshopped stock photo for Tali.

There was serious anger over the game as it launched. No Man's Sky / Cyberpunk levels of anger.

 

[Night Sky]

Bethesda make a world and write your own stories

Bioware writes a tight nit story in an open world. Though their last good era was Mass Effect 1 and DA1. After that, it was down hill from there.

 

[GreyHorace]

Maybe so, maybe they weren't all that great. tbh as i get older I realize the "incredible writing" of games like BG 2 or Neverwinter: Mask of Betrayer wasn't all that amazing, it was about on the same tier as D&D novels. Which isn't awful, but it isn't high-end literature or something, either.

Ya gotta consider, especially by the crescendo of BG 2, that the insane volume and the overall consistency of 1,000s of lines of dialogue... all meshed into a consistent game world. That wasn't being done elsewhere like Bioware was doing.

True. Bioware was a trailblazer when it came to branching dialogue in an rpg. And they were a huge influence to both Obsidian and CDProjektRed.

That's why it hurts to see them in their current state. In a better reality Bioware should be standing atop the rpg mountain alongside Bethesda, CDPR and even From Software. Not in the gutter where they are now.

You had to be there at the launch of ME3 with those original endings. There was legitimate, "What the fuck did I just waste years of anticipation over," energy.

Agreed. I never touched ME again after that. Absolute mismanagement with the entire thing. The only aspect ME3 got right was the combat IMHO. Had a lot of fun with that and the CO_Op mode.

Spoiler: Spoilers for the end of ME3

The 2nd cutscene that shows the relays being rebuilt didn't exist. For all anybody knew they were just gone, with the vast amount of the galaxy's military stranded in Sol. There were no Synthesis or Defiance endings, just Control and Destroy, one of which genocides an entire race of people who are finally an ally after 300 years. As far as anybody knew the Normandy was marooned on a raw planet forever, and the straw that broke the camel's back was the photoshopped stock photo for Tali.

There was serious anger over the game as it launched. No Man's Sky / Cyberpunk levels of anger.

Count me as one of those present during that ME3 Ending shit show. I was a member of the infamous Bioware Social Network (BSN) and even before the game released there were rumblings around BSN about the endings from people who got early copies of the game.

When ME3 released, I thought to myself "this can't be as bad as people say it is." as I played through the game. As the credits rolled, my eyes were wide with disbelief and I thought to myself "WTF?!"

I was pissed just as many people were, though I didn't join in the dogpiling like many others. And it didn't help when the Bioware devs (including the founders) acted like petulant bitches at all the negative feedback. Add to the fact that game 'jurnalitz' were running defense for them, and you had the beginnings of what would become Gamergate.

In short, I lost a lot of faith in Bioware after the ME3 debacle. Even with the Extended Cut Endings (which I find a weak band aid to the real problems of the ME3 endings), I never bothered with ME3 again.

 

[ManofTwo]

Because of E.A

 

[Kadayi]

I do remember the 'entitled gamer' narrative that came out of the ME3 debacle. in large part, I think the near-unanimous praIse by the gaming press of ME3 marked a significant departure point between Game Journalism versus the gaming public. People felt misled by the high scores and the abject failure to take Bioware to task critically didn't help. Sanctimonious cunts like Arthur Gies in particular were a big part of the problem IIRC

 

[HE1NZ]

That dogpiling went way over the top, leading some key Bioware people to leave the studio.

I haven't seen any of ME3 critics being able to present a better idea how to end the series. Bioware cornered themselves when they raised to stakes to such a level that ME3 ends with a end of the world scenario. A classic Star Wars ending where the good guys win and pat each other on the back simply doesn't fit here. Scale of events are much bigger than Sheppard and his crew. They all know it's a suicide mission and say their last goodbyes during the final battle on Earth, a bit before the very last fight. It's quite poignant.

My judgement is based on extended ending. Maybe there were some key components missing from the original release, but the current version is just right.

 

[GreyHorace]

I do remember the 'entitled gamer' narrative that came out of the ME3 debacle. in large part, I think the near-unanimous praIse by the gaming press of ME3 marked a significant departure point between Game Journalism versus the gaming public. People felt misled by the high scores and the abject failure to take Bioware to task critically didn't help. Sanctimonious cunts like Arthur Gies in particular were a big part of the problem IIRC

Don't forget the whole 'artistic integrity' bollocks argument the devs used as their reason for refusing to change the ending. Bullshit. As if there hasn't been popular media that was changed by the creator due to fan backlash. Best example being Arthur Conan Doyle bringing Sherlock Holmes back to life after killing him off in The Final Problem.

And where Bioware stood firm on their incompetence, Bethesda at least had the sense to admit they fucked up with the ending of Fallout 3. And they gave fans a DLC that changed the original ending.

That dogpiling went way over the top, leading some key Bioware people to leave the studio.

Good riddance then. I'm not sorry to see creative people quit just because they couldn't stand a little fan outrage.

 

[HE1NZ]

And where Bioware stood firm on their incompetence, Bethesda at least had the sense to admit they fucked up with the ending of Fallout 3. And they gave fans a DLC that changed the original ending.

Bethesda turned Fallout into a joke franchise. Like what Disney did with Star Wars.

Incomparable to Mass Effect 3 situation.

 

[Night Sky]

Mass effect was shite after 1. 2 had stupid combat, ammo, blood on screen damage, inability to target people of they had a certain shield on them.
Then 3 really took the biscuit with the writing ending, fucking up of the reapers and sovereign, loopholes and endless story loops and the icing on the cake; some ign slag turned up in game.

Remember her in the game? Remember how you were called a sexist for criticising that she was in the game, breaking the forth wall and how you were a misogynist because you couldn't smack her in the face like you could in ME1?

That's one of the moments I knew gaming had changed and the good years were never coming back. What was that, 10 years ago?

 

[GreyHorace]

Bethesda turned Fallout into a joke franchise. Like what Disney did with Star Wars.

Incomparable to Mass Effect 3 situation.

Can't really comment since I haven't played any of the Bethesda Fallout games. I just think it was admirable the way Todd Howard humbled himself and addressed the complaints made by gamers.

The doctors who ran Bioware on the other hand got pissy and lectured gamers for being entitled and defended their so-called artistic integrity. It's like they felt betrayed by the audience they built up and lashed out in response. Just a pure PR shit show.

Mass effect was shite after 1. 2 had stupid combat, ammo, blood on screen damage, inability to target people of they had a certain shield on them.
Then 3 really took the biscuit with the writing ending, fucking up of the reapers and sovereign, loopholes and endless story loops and the icing on the cake; some ign slag turned up in game.

Remember her in the game? Remember how you were called a sexist for criticising that she was in the game, breaking the forth wall and how you were a misogynist because you couldn't smack her in the face like you could in ME1?

That's one of the moments I knew gaming had changed and the good years were never coming back. What was that, 10 years ago?

Jessica Chobot. Yeah, what a complete waste of what could have been an interesting addition to your crew. A journalist covering the Reaper War? There's a ton of story opportunities for such a character in the hands of capable writers. Instead we get saddled with a glorified cameo from an IGN booth babe.

And don't forget the simping Bioware did for Felicia Day in a Dragon Age 2 DLC.

 

[Night Sky]

Can't really comment since I haven't played any of the Bethesda Fallout games. I just think it was admirable the way Todd Howard humbled himself and addressed the complaints made by gamers.

The doctors who ran Bioware on the other hand got pissy and lectured gamers for being entitled and defended their so-called artistic integrity. It's like they felt betrayed by the audience they built up and lashed out in response. Just a pure PR shit show.


Jessica Chobot. Yeah, what a complete waste of what could have been an interesting addition to your crew. A journalist covering the Reaper War? There's a ton of story opportunities for such a character in the hands of capable writers. Instead we get saddled with a glorified cameo from an IGN booth babe.

And don't forget the simping Bioware did for Felicia Day in a Dragon Age 2 DLC.

Go woke, go broke: origins

What's the correlation between pandering to women and the quality of a game?

fwiw I like both day and chodebot they just represented the shift in the direction of the industry. More chodebot than Day, as Day at least contributes some quality voice work

 

[GreyHorace]

Go woke, go broke: origins

What's the correlation between pandering to women and the quality of a game?

fwiw I like both day and chodebot they just represented the shift in the direction of the industry. More chodebot than Day, as Day at least contributes some quality voice work

I really didn't mind Felicia Day back then. I wasn't really a fan of her (more my brother since he watched The Guild), but then she turned anti-gamer around the time Gamergate started.

What a completely retarded way to alienate the gamers who made you famous. I can't stand her now since that time.

 

[Bolivar]

I would suspect Bioware was probably more popular than Bethesda until Oblivion/Fallout 3.

Bethesda has always stuck to their signature formula and the technology finally caught up to what they were trying to do. Bioware's leaders left and they've struggled to try different things.

 

[El Rey]

I honestly don't know. I've never played a Bethesda game I've liked but I loved the Dragon Age and Neverwinter Nights series.

 

[Vow]

BioWare had some greats. Kotor, Mass Effect, some of my favourite moments.

The thing that marked it for me was the Mass Effect 3 ending furore.

When I completed it I was kind of 'meh' but then found the indoctrination theory video and my mind was blown. If they had actually done that and pulled it off they had actually managed to 'indoctrinate' the player, and it would have been one of the most seminal moments in video game storytelling history.

But that wasn't the case. They just made a kind of shitty ending.

The first Dragon Age was great too.

 

[Epic Nemesis]

BioWare was the better studio until the doctors left. Bethesda also decided to make some pact with the devil to create Skyrim. The jump from Oblivion to Skyrim was I think the biggest same generation jump in a franchise. Never really got into the fallouts though.

 

[Dacon]

And don't forget the simping Bioware did for Felicia Day in a Dragon Age 2 DLC.

I can't stand this cunt. I remember her retarded gamergate posts about how she felt threatened by dudes walking on the street wearing Call of Duty shirts. Pissed me tf off when she showed up in Supernatural too. There is nothing interesting or remarkable about this woman that you can't get with any other female interested in nerd shit.

 

[GreyHorace]

I can't stand this cunt. I remember her retarded gamergate posts about how she felt threatened by dudes walking on the street wearing Call of Duty shirts. Pissed me tf off when she showed up in Supernatural too. There is nothing interesting or remarkable about this woman that you can't get with any other female interested in nerd shit.

She was never into nerd shit I think. The whole Gamergate affair exposed her as a fake geek girl who was just using the gaming audience for exposure. You'll notice in her Youtube channels the views she gets barely hit above 5K, compared to the millions of views she got at the height of her fame.

Like I said, completely retarded way to kill your audience.

 

[Dacon]

She was never into nerd shit I think. The whole Gamergate affair exposed her as a fake geek girl who was just using the gaming audience for exposure. You'll notice in her Youtube channels the views she gets barely hit above 5K, compared to the millions of views she got at the height of her fame.

Like I said, completely retarded way to kill your audience.

Whether she was genuine or not about her interests, I still don't see the appeal.

 

[regawdless]

BioWare games sold rather well, ME2 for example sold 5m, DA2 only like 2m from what I've read. Bethesda games were huge and had legs, with Fallout 3 selling over 12m copies. It looks like their open world formula was more popular than the more story driven approach by BioWare.