[VFX_Veteran]

All,

I've been lurking in the GAF/RE forums for the past few days and I came across one of the topics that historically have gotten me into a lot of trouble with the mods.

Many console fans literally "assume" or highly anticipate future hardware for consoles to be in the same ballpark as the highest-end GPU boards for the PC that cost 1000s of dollars. They completely ignore the price factor and assume consoles will be fairly close to high-end hardware. It's been this way since the PS4 days. I get that prior to the PS4, things were different and consoles got a lot of special sauce hardware that could rival or outperform PC hardware but those days are long gone.

The mid-gen refreshes that happend with the PS4 were simply overclocked hardware of the same architecture as the PS4. Yet when there was a thread made for what people think would be in next-gen consoles (i.e. PS5/XSX), they dreamed of the moon. Even now they still hang on to the belief that AMD will somehow put a Navi4 into a mid-gen console (i.e. PS5 Pro) and suddenly be able to push past the 4k60fps barrier -- AND all for $500. It's complete and utter cringeworthy and forces people that have common sense, observant of the demos/games that have come out so far, and have watched the limitations that we've seen so far to refute their claims and thus arguing ensues afterwards.

IF there is a mid-gen refresh this time around, there is no way that it will suddenly be 3x more powerful, have dedicated RT cores, involve some kind of frame generation, and render games at native 4k/60FPS with all RT options set to high.. and only for $500.

 

[DoctaThompson]

Expectations vs Reality hit hard with this topic, and many just can't accept how tech comes with a cost, even when it's subsidized. You will still have to cut corners to get these newer features in a $500 box.

 

[Nikana]

It's a combination of marketing and ignorance. As it always is in the gaming industry.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

Expectations vs Reality hit hard with this topic, and many just can't accept how tech comes with a cost, even when it's subsidized. You will still have to cut corners to get these newer features in a $500 box.

Exactly. it makes no sense to have a point of argument be that AMD is literally going to make a Navi4 wtih a mid-gen upgrade and it be the same cost as the base PS5. For just 3yrs into this generation, there is no way they was working on a Pro version that's a totally different architecture than the PS5 with complete 100% backward compatibility.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

It's a combination of marketing and ignorance. As it always is in the gaming industry.

It can't be ignorance though. Some of these people are very knowledgeable. Take "thicc" for example. This dude is very knowledgable about hardware but he's completely dreaming when he talks about future specs. And people literally go off of what he proposes.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

This guy, I've had many arguments with and he's been 100% wrong about his wishes since the PS4 days..

Graphic Fidelity I Expect Next Gen.

We are still far away from the release of midgens and keep in mind that midgens packed Polaris GPUs that were released during the same year and PS4 PRO even packed features from the future Vega like RPM and FP16 that helped it a lot. If midgens launch at the end of next year alongside RDNA4...

www.resetera.com

Yet he still spouts off his mouth as if he knows what's going to happen. If he's wrong about mid-gen, he'll automatically think the PS6 will have the things he proposes.

If AMD doesn't solve the frame generation problem with Navi4 then everything they release will not run PT with good performance.

 

[Nikana]

It can't be ignorance though. Some of these people are very knowledgeable. Take "thicc" for example. This dude is very knowledgable about hardware but he's completely dreaming when he talks about future specs. And people literally go off of what he proposes.

Having knowledge doesn't mean you aren't ignorant.

 

[HE1NZ]

Who cares what Gaf/Ree says?

Anyway, console fanboys feel religious about their brand of choice. It just have to be the best. PC is a threat too so mental gymnastics are required. That's how myths of Cell or KRAKEN SSD keep perpetuating.

 

[Nikana]

Who cares what Gaf/Ree says?

Anyway, console fanboys feel religious about their brand of choice. It just have to be the best. PC is a threat too so mental gymnastics are required. That's how myths of Cell or KRAKEN SSD keep perpetuating.

Kraken was a weird one. It's legit tech that is impressive. But this notion it could somehow turn an SSD into RAM was quite the leap.

 

[Snes nes]

All,

I've been lurking in the GAF/RE forums for the past few days and I came across one of the topics that historically have gotten me into a lot of trouble with the mods.

Many console fans literally "assume" or highly anticipate future hardware for consoles to be in the same ballpark as the highest-end GPU boards for the PC that cost 1000s of dollars. They completely ignore the price factor and assume consoles will be fairly close to high-end hardware. It's been this way since the PS4 days. I get that prior to the PS4, things were different and consoles got a lot of special sauce hardware that could rival or outperform PC hardware but those days are long gone.

The mid-gen refreshes that happend with the PS4 were simply overclocked hardware of the same architecture as the PS4. Yet when there was a thread made for what people think would be in next-gen consoles (i.e. PS5/XSX), they dreamed of the moon. Even now they still hang on to the belief that AMD will somehow put a Navi4 into a mid-gen console (i.e. PS5 Pro) and suddenly be able to push past the 4k60fps barrier -- AND all for $500. It's complete and utter cringeworthy and forces people that have common sense, observant of the demos/games that have come out so far, and have watched the limitations that we've seen so far to refute their claims and thus arguing ensues afterwards.

IF there is a mid-gen refresh this time around, there is no way that it will suddenly be 3x more powerful, have dedicated RT cores, involve some kind of frame generation, and render games at native 4k/60FPS with all RT options set to high.. and only for $500.

ho boy if you think reee's got ignorant takes you yet to see the mal forums lol.

 

[zebraStraw]

Who cares what console fanboys think? Why do you need people to see the superiority of your chosen hardware? Just play what you enjoy.

If you view it as a power race, you miss the real benefits of PC gaming.

PS5 is more powerful than my Deck, but I don't care. I'd rather play games there than on a console. Hell, I'd rather play a lot of games on there than my much more powerful PC.

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

What's funny is how people treat it like a sports team. So they'll otherwise be super rational in any other area but when it comes to anything console vs PC related all that goes out the window. Just like super vocal sports fans.

My favorite is how whenever some sort of new PC tech comes out that their console doesn't have or there's just something the PC does better, they'll go through so many mental gymnastics to downplay it openly. The most common being they can't see the diff or price isn't worth it... But when a new console generation comes out they assume their side will not only have it, but have a better implementation of it. As well as any other cutting edge feature at the standard console price. But then when the console launches without those things or to a lesser degree that clearly doesn't beat PC, all of a sudden those things don't really matter.

 

[regawdless]

Hopes and expectations are always high, too high in many cases. Which also has a positive effect, because it pushes the console manufacturers to their limits. And it works, for the comparatively low costs, consumers get very well designed consoles with top of the line controllers included. High end mobile phones cost way more. The consoles are a steal.

Consoles deliver pretty good visuals, in some cases exceptional ones, but will really show their age halfway through the gen.

With Nvidia really pushing it in the PC space, I feel like RT will be the most significant short coming of the consoles this gen.

 

[Hostile_18]

I mean to be fair you don't have to know the inner workings of a car to drive it. There's plenty of other hobbies I know nothing about from a technical perspective. I imagine most will fall into lack of knowledge. That been said I don't think the difference between a new gen console and a high end PC is that different.. maybe 40% better experience for 3 times the cost? Worth it for enthusiasts totally, don't get me wrong. A set console configuration is a huge boon for sure.

Also the cost to value ratio is really skewed now. I pay loads for my hardware but games are as cheap as chips. Consoles making up the low front end by monetizing their users as much as possible in a walled garden.

Outside of that, it probably edges into fan boy territory and grown men who can't accept they are having a lesser experience while also (initially) saving money. They support a company like a football team, not even worth expending the energy to try and apply reason.

 

[Optimus]

All,

I've been lurking in the GAF/RE forums for the past few days and I came across one of the topics that historically have gotten me into a lot of trouble with the mods.

Many console fans literally "assume" or highly anticipate future hardware for consoles to be in the same ballpark as the highest-end GPU boards for the PC that cost 1000s of dollars. They completely ignore the price factor and assume consoles will be fairly close to high-end hardware. It's been this way since the PS4 days. I get that prior to the PS4, things were different and consoles got a lot of special sauce hardware that could rival or outperform PC hardware but those days are long gone.

The mid-gen refreshes that happend with the PS4 were simply overclocked hardware of the same architecture as the PS4. Yet when there was a thread made for what people think would be in next-gen consoles (i.e. PS5/XSX), they dreamed of the moon. Even now they still hang on to the belief that AMD will somehow put a Navi4 into a mid-gen console (i.e. PS5 Pro) and suddenly be able to push past the 4k60fps barrier -- AND all for $500. It's complete and utter cringeworthy and forces people that have common sense, observant of the demos/games that have come out so far, and have watched the limitations that we've seen so far to refute their claims and thus arguing ensues afterwards.

IF there is a mid-gen refresh this time around, there is no way that it will suddenly be 3x more powerful, have dedicated RT cores, involve some kind of frame generation, and render games at native 4k/60FPS with all RT options set to high.. and only for $500.

Honestly, after forking out about $1800 on an RTX 4090, the best I hope for from any console, especially a Nintendo one, is something highly efficient and optimized that's able to make a bit of magic happen that you won't find on a general computing device. And I figure if that magic catches on, it'll appear on PC within a year sort of like how BotW was fully playable on PC within months. If Nintendo figures out a way to leverage holograms or some sort of "Total Recall" experience, PC community will bring it to fruition for PC users.

And that's literally the most I hope for out of the console makers. I like my Series X, although since getting back into modern PC gaming it's become totally redundant. The PS5 has a bit of magic in its controller and has Playstation exclusives. Nintendo has basically got them first party games you don't really find anywhere else and even that is getting emulated on PC to the extent that it's superior to play on PC.

 

[WesternBlood]

Fans of a particular hobby suffer from both the Pie-eyed optimism of what is to come Christmas Morning and appreciating the technological advancements coupled with, well it should hit this benchmark in [current year], something else must be hampering the promises from materializing.

Tribalism takes a big role as well, and it doesn't help when the manufacturers promise the moon up until the day of launch and do their best to hide any mention of said promises with well worded misdirection. See Microsoft when they pushed Kinect, Cloud Game Rendering, and every time any console (Sony and Microsoft) release stop-gaps mid-generation which still fall short in a couple months while not achieving parity with what the PC market offers.

 

[DonDonDonPata]

i think the "punches above its weight" truism is pretty true for consoles, always has been. A $500 PS5 is playing better-looking games than building a potato-computer from scratch for the same cost. Some PC gamers try to take this away from their console brethren, for some reason.

Unfortunately, instead of gratitude and "knowing one's place" in a manner of speaking, some console fans take this logic a bit too far and they conclude "punches above its weight" means "outperforms hardware more than three times as expensive". This is the territory of delusion, like a Honda fan trying to insist his souped-up 4 banger could outperform an 8 cylinder supercar.

I think gamers talk too much about hardware when there's far more interesting stuff to nitpick, compare, and speculate in the games themselves.

 

[Gold Loot]

I wouldn't expect a 500$ box to boost the same performance as a 3000$ box, but I do feel they are pretty damned good for the price.

Games like TLOU ,Forbidden West FF16, and R&C look great. Now can you push fidelity further with a high end PC? Of course! But I also feel that it's way too steep a price gap for the returns.

If console only gamers need to wait 3 or so years to get more bells and whistles, then they'll happily wait and enjoy what they have. Nothings stopping someone with more disposable income to play games with cutting edge effects

Yes, console fanboys are annoying, but let's not pretend there aren't PC elitists that act just as annoying.

 

[QuantumZebra]

I find myself in the weird position of preferring the simplicity of a console (PS5 is my gaming system of choice) over PC.

That inevitably leads to people trying to tell me "its just as simple"/seamless to run a PC like a console (editors note: it isn't) and being called poor/unable to build a PC (which is fucking hilarious as I'm an IT Director, and own 2 of every console, multiple Macs, etc... all the "gaming rigs" I used to run are now mining crypto).

PCMR's need to check themselves just as much as console fanbois. Consoles are always going to have quality of life features and "smooth" operation compared to PC, and PC will always have the power advantage.

To me the folks pretending a PC can be just as simple and family friendly as a console are just as bad if not worse than the console fanbois claiming their console is just as gud as a PC.

 

[Snes nes]

Honestly I partly blame the youtube content around these things. Its like all the content around pop culture on it is meant to fabricate a false reality and most of the "educational video" essays aren't accurate and shouldn't be trusted. If your talking actual relevant history then it becomes alright.

One thing is for starters the youtube content surrounding anime is practically unwatchable.

The fighting game videos on the platform are rarely worth your time and have no concept of what qualifies as a niche market most of them sell millions of copies but those youtubers want you to believe they don't sell for whatever reason and the majority of them are annoying.

your general gaming channels do not tell you anything about how either of these industries work and the audiences don't care about learning something about the said industry they just consume products. A example was when sonic origins released everyone just goes on to just hate on the game but really it was a good product but you wouldn't even know that if you only watch youtube reviews.

 

[Hinedorf]

Because console folks are poor and hope costs nothing

 

[synchronicity]

I'm way out of my personal element in terms of interest in this topic, but I still felt like chiming in. I primarily game on PC, and while nice tech is enjoyable, it has very little correlation to my pleasure with this hobby. In fact, as time has gone on I gravitate more heavily to lower budget and older titles, while still enjoying some newer stuff, to be fair.

I really feel bad for so many who *seem* to be unable to appreciate anything other than technical aspects. It seems like an OCD obsession for some. Such a narrow scope to sample from. I can't imagine gaming with those tendencies.

 

[regawdless]

Because console folks are poor and hope costs nothing

 

[VFX_Veteran]

Who cares what console fanboys think? Why do you need people to see the superiority of your chosen hardware? Just play what you enjoy.

It's not even about superiority really. It's about observing the tech and seeing how it all fits within the constraints of a game. We've seen several games released this generation and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that consoles are at their limit hardware wise. Epic always shows their tech demos geared for the next-generation and not the "current" one. People think they'll see a Matrix demo-like game produced in the next 4yrs on the hardware of today when it's struggling to hit 1440p/60FPS in rasterization alone. If people would put aside their wishes for their hardware of choice to somehow pull a rabbit out of their hat then we could have more constructive discussion.

I follow the tech.. I don't care what hardware it's on. I'll buy that hardware in order to have the latest and greatest. If AMD suddenly came out with some incredible GPU that dwarfs the Nvidia boards, I'd switch in a heartbeat to AMD. If they put out a console that is more performant than the highest end GPUs, I'd buy that..but to think I "need" to stay in one corner of the boxing ring in order to fight that fight, I'm literally being unrealistic and ignorant.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

I really feel bad for so many who *seem* to be unable to appreciate anything other than technical aspects. It seems like an OCD obsession for some. Such a narrow scope to sample from. I can't imagine gaming with those tendencies.

To be fair, I'd be one of those that are unable to appreciate technical aspects other than graphics and it's driven my gaming for years now. I sort of have an excuse in that I do graphics as a living so I have to be that way. But you are right though. There are still some games that absolutely blow everything away the looks good for the sake of fun gameplay (i.e. Sekiro is my alltime favorite game).

 

[FactsAreDead]

I don't demand graphics. What I demand is ambition in game design. That's why the PS5/Xbox Series are the shittest generations ever imo. Literally NO game released on these platforms wouldn't also have been possible on previous generations. All the power is used on resolution/framerate and some bells and whistles. But gameplay? Gameplay that is only possible thanks to more hardware power? NOTHING.

Where are my fully destructible GTA-games?
Where are towns filled with NPCs that all have their own personality and you can interact with them and they interact with each other, creating a totally new level of social immersion?
Where are the AI-games that create new levels/environments based on the players decisions?
Where are the JRPG-towns that feel so alive like you're playing one of those isekai anime?
And so on.

Instead we get a FF16 that looks like a PS4-game AND doesn't offer anything new gameplay-wise. Halo Infinite, Horizon 2, God of War, Psychonauts 2, blabla, those could all have released on past generations. FUCK, they DID.

Console-generations are dead, but I'm thankful to the graphics-obsessed idiots. Thanks to you, I can play currentgen-games on my super old PC, lol.

 

[zebraStraw]

It's not even about superiority really. It's about observing the tech and seeing how it all fits within the constraints of a game. We've seen several games released this generation and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that consoles are at their limit hardware wise. Epic always shows their tech demos geared for the next-generation and not the "current" one. People think they'll see a Matrix demo-like game produced in the next 4yrs on the hardware of today when it's struggling to hit 1440p/60FPS in rasterization alone. If people would put aside their wishes for their hardware of choice to somehow pull a rabbit out of their hat then we could have more constructive discussion.

I follow the tech.. I don't care what hardware it's on. I'll buy that hardware in order to have the latest and greatest. If AMD suddenly came out with some incredible GPU that dwarfs the Nvidia boards, I'd switch in a heartbeat to AMD. If they put out a console that is more performant than the highest end GPUs, I'd buy that..but to think I "need" to stay in one corner of the boxing ring in order to fight that fight, I'm literally being unrealistic and ignorant.

Games can have great tech and still be shit. Ubisoft and sony make pretty games that are very boring.

Idk, I guess I never really cared about DF zooming into a pixel to see some minute difference. Gamers should focus on games and drop the tribalism. Like lmao you're adults. Get a life.

 

[Snes nes]

I don't demand graphics. What I demand is ambition in game design. That's why the PS5/Xbox Series are the shittest generations ever imo. Literally NO game released on these platforms wouldn't also have been possible on previous generations. All the power is used on resolution/framerate and some bells and whistles. But gameplay? Gameplay that is only possible thanks to more hardware power? NOTHING.

Where are my fully destructible GTA-games?
Where are towns filled with NPCs that all have their own personality and you can interact with them and they interact with each other, creating a totally new level of social immersion?
Where are the AI-games that create new levels/environments based on the players decisions?
Where are the JRPG-towns that feel so alive like you're playing one of those isekai anime?
And so on.

Instead we get a FF16 that looks like a PS4-game AND doesn't offer anything new gameplay-wise. Halo Infinite, Horizon 2, God of War, Psychonauts 2, blabla, those could all have released on past generations. FUCK, they DID.

Console-generations are dead, but I'm thankful to the graphics-obsessed idiots. Thanks to you, I can play currentgen-games on my super old PC, lol.

I think thats all coming soon with the language model advancements. And you can destroy the gta games by deleting them or scratching the discs

 

[Torrent of Pork]

I've always said I enjoy gaming as a hobby, just not enough to spend more than an Xbox and Switch on hardware.

Not even a money issue, as I just dropped $1500 on all the gubbins for 9 chickens. The little shit-machines are a riot, and I'm looking forward to the fresh eggs in about 4 months.

 

[LtGoose]

: The Thread


I'll make sure to stop having fun since RT isn't 4k maximum puddle depth

 

[WesternBlood]

: The Thread

Somehow, Palpatine returned?

 

[LtGoose]

Somehow, Palpatine returned?

 

[Chozofication]

Im going to he happy with switch 2 hardware. Nintendo will make that thing SING. I mention switch as that is a machine that truly needs an update, and not just omg i want path tracing on everything because that's what makes games good.

In terms of a ps5 pro, I couldn't be less interested as im content with the ps5's capabilities number 1, and number 2 if there's a game with heavy RT that consoles don't do justice ill just get on pc. I am more so awaiting a ps5 slim which will last longer and not be so stupidly large.

 

[Mickmrly]

Where are my fully destructible GTA-games?
Where are towns filled with NPCs that all have their own personality and you can interact with them and they interact with each other, creating a totally new level of social immersion?
Where are the AI-games that create new levels/environments based on the players decisions?
Where are the JRPG-towns that feel so alive like you're playing one of those isekai anime?

I think all of those things are not actually dependent on hardware, but rather just extra code, good writing and game logic. All of the things you have described could be done on any hardware to be honest.

The thing is for all of these things to happen, you would need imaginative devs who can make a good/coherent game through the various options. Right now, devs could make an open world that is fully destructible and have everything turn to rubble. But will it actually be enjoyable past the first time? Probably not.

With the towns full of interesting/living NPC's, that requires good writing and some sound game logic to adapt the NPC's to their various interactions.

Regarding the new levels/environments based on players decisions, that also would be done via some additional code that alters the environments that are generated.

Games, and programming in general, are all basically arrays and if statements at their core. The magic of good games comes from creativity and competence.

 

[Chozofication]

I think all of those things are not actually dependent on hardware, but rather just extra code, good writing and game logic. All of the things you have described could be done on any hardware to be honest.

The thing is for all of these things to happen, you would need imaginative devs who can make a good/coherent game through the various options. Right now, devs could make an open world that is fully destructible and have everything turn to rubble. But will it actually be enjoyable past the first time? Probably not.

With the towns full of interesting/living NPC's, that requires good writing and some sound game logic to adapt the NPC's to their various interactions.

Regarding the new levels/environments based on players decisions, that also would be done via some additional code that alters the environments that are generated.

Games, and programming in general, are all basically arrays and if statements at their core. The magic of good games comes from creativity and competence.

There was definitely a limit on ps4 last gen in that, the cpu was better JUST enough compared to ps3 to allow for all the extra detail and that's about it. It was really a bad cpu.

Even still, devs could have done more than they did last gen and chose to focus on graphics and mot interactivity.

Ps5 doesn't have that problem and it's definitely a manpower/money/developer limitation at this point.

 

[Zefah]

PS5 was still a crazy good deal for the performance in late 2020, especially considering it was basically impossible to get GPUs.

 

[Dacon]

You know damn well why, corporate loyalism.

 

[VFX_Veteran]

You know damn well why, corporate loyalism.

But what do the fans pushing an agenda that's unrealistic have to do with that?

 

[Yer Da]

Because they're dumb.

 

[HariSeldon]

I'm old. I remember snes vs Genesis, ST vs Amiga (down with Amiga scum), etc. it was always the case that people would bullshit about their machine of choice, in part due to only reading sources for their machine (after all why read a Nintendo mag when your genesis can't play its games). War never changes.