[Kadayi]

Ooh, I forgot about Elex, yeah, definitely add that to the list! You're right about KCD too, I've not played the sequel yet but the first is a really great game. Hard pass on Fallout 4 though, ew.

Edit: Another one to consider, 40K Rogue Trader and the Pathfinder series.

You need to rectify that AB. KCD II is phenomenal. If I'm not playing it. I'm generally thinking about playing it. It's all-consuming.

Yep Rogue Trader and Pathfinder WotR are two of my favorites.

Jagged Alliance 3 is another good one. @Kadayi got me hooked on that one awhile ago.

Yeah JA3 is pretty awesome, and the characters are great.

Once I break my KCD II addiction I've got Rogue Trader set up to jump into.

 

[DonDonDonPata]

You need to rectify that AB. KCD II is phenomenal. If I'm not playing it. I'm generally thinking about playing it. It's all-consuming.




Yeah JA3 is pretty awesome, and the characters are great.

Once I break my KCD II addiction I've got Rogue Trader set up to jump into.

You'll love Rogue Trader. That game is criminally underrated considering how hot western RPGs have gotten recently. My first playthrough was as heretical as possible and I gotta say, I've played a ton of cRPGs that offer an "evil" route and RT may be one of the very best. Such a good sci fi RPG whether you like 40K or not.

JA3 feels like playing the old Interplay Fallout minus the radioactive setting. The combat, the humor, the variety of approaches. It's also very underrated, especially for what you're getting in the package. I could see myself easily sinking 200+ more hours into it just casually going through campaigns over and over with different party members.

 

[DonDonDonPata]

@Franky Family i wanna make one more general comment about western RPGs:

From the start, these games have been about high simulation and high replay value. Different classes, different choices, different character alignments, advanced physics, expanded exploration, NPC behaviors and routines, a playground of pen-and-paper dialogue trees, these are hallmarks of the western RPG.

You are learning a "system" and you're not expected to master it in one playthrough, nor are you expected to 100% it.

Contrast that with JRPGs which tend to simplify, distill, and shorten the experience. Yes we have 100+ hour JRPGs nowadays but that is only after decades of western influence. The original JRPGs like Dragon Quest and FF were 25-35 hour affairs, and not replayable. JRPGs began getting branching paths and multiple endings a full decade after that was normalized in PC RPGs.

JRPGs have always felt like the distilled RPG experience, which is exactly what I like about them. Western RPGs tend to be a slower burn, something you settle into and play at least twice (if the game clicks with you)

 

[Franky Family]

Maybe this is wrong but the prototypical WRPG appears to be The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. To me, that game looks like it would be worthwhile and fun for hundreds of hours. If there are any masterpieces in the WRPG world, which ones would those be? The games that deserve to be played by every single gamer because they are that great and should be celebrated as belonging in the untouchable classic tier. Are there any WRPGs that gave you that impression?

And would it be wrong to be calling these WRPGs the OG bloatmasters? I have to imagine, if they don't hit the target, there's probably still hundreds of hours of gameplay to be had even if the game remains mediocre throughout? I despise bloat in games, especially now. And tbh I sort of pair the WRPG subgenre with the notion that the adventures will be so expansive that bloat is almost inevitable even in the greats

 

[DonDonDonPata]

Maybe this is wrong but the prototypical WRPG appears to be The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. To me, that game looks like it would be worthwhile and fun for hundreds of hours. If there are any masterpieces in the WRPG world, which ones would those be? The games that deserve to be played by every single gamer because they are that great and should be celebrated as belonging in the untouchable classic tier. Are there any WRPGs that gave you that impression?

And would it be wrong to be calling these WRPGs the OG bloatmasters? I have to imagine, if they don't hit the target, there's probably still hundreds of hours of gameplay to be had even if the game remains mediocre throughout? I despise bloat in games, especially now. And tbh I sort of pair the WRPG subgenre with the notion that the adventures will be so expansive that bloat is almost inevitable even in the greats

Define "bloat". Are all the endings of Chrono Trigger and Star Ocean 2 bloat or is it a strength? Japanese RPGs are just as guilty of bloat but it's a different form of bloat. All those Chocobo mini games or stereotypical "beach vacations" or dating simulator elements or lengthy wordy cutscenes or whatever could be considered bloat too. It comes down to the quality of the content.

Speaking personally, I have only completed a handful of the bigger 100+ hour JRPGs over the years. I tend to bounce off the really lengthy ones and yet I replay many of the shorter <50hr JRPGs for a total well above the 100hr mark.

But I could name dozens of western RPGs that each ate up 100+ hours with plenty more to see and do in future replays. That's the nature of the western side of things, you simply have bigger more replayable games built for replay ability beyond simply having different ending cutscenes. Yet that's their downside…. It can be harder to get sucked in immediately and to grapple with all the systems at once, so I often feel like I'm playing the game sub-optimally while I figure things out.

Look up some of the games mentioned earlier in the thread: if you want to control a full party from a bird's eye view, you have lots of options like Rogue Trader 40K, Jagged Alliance 3, Pillars of Eternity 2, Pathfinder, Baldur's Gate 3, etc

Then there's the roguelike / Diablo branch of Western RPGs like Path of Exile, Diablo, Titan Quest, Grim Dawn, etc

Then you have action RPGs in first person or third person like Skyrim, Outward, Elex, Witcher series, Mount & Blade, etc

Lots of options. If you love RPGs there's no reason not to look into the (vast) western side of RPGs and find something that intrigues you

 

[Zeta Dragoon]

I've started up Phantasy Star IV but have only fought a handful of enemies. I like how that game starts out. The plot for that game sounds like it could go places based on what I know from the little bit of lore in this town that you start off at



Haven't played it yet. Would you say that it's better than DQVIII or DQIII? I'm looking for the complete package; something that is excellent across the board in every category with almost no weak points



Besides The Elder Scrolls games, I'm not too convinced that they're even that good tbh. JRPGs seem to have the upper hand. Western RPGs, what do they excel at if you had to describe them? At a glance I can see that they seem to have larger overworlds and probably better inventory and stealth than JRPGs, as well as better lore throughout the world on a game by game basis. But JRPGs when they're done right check all the boxes

Dragon Quest XI is built off of III and VIII. III has job rotation and upgrades, while XI has a skill system. Seen people say VIII has the better story.

Both VIII and XI are a different scale then III which was originally a 30-50 hour NES title. SNES allowed IV to greatly increase in game size and content. VIII and XI are easily 100 hours to do everything.

Dragon Quest VII is probably one of if not the infamously paced game ever made, with a 3 hour intro until you see actual combat, and about 20-30 hours until you unlock ability to switch classes. Still good if very different. IV has male or female protagonist and chapters for its cast leading up to them meeting up, its a predecessor in a lot of ways to Romancing SaGa and Octopath Traveler. VI has foundations and time/zone shift that helped lead to Chrono Trigger.

Act III in XI is divisive.

Spoiler: Major Dragon Quest XI Spoilers

What I think most fans don't realize is that its not just Act III undoing stuff from Act I and II, its also an entire optional Post Game aiming for a Golden Ending with endgame events, dungeons and super bosses that will absolutely fuck you up without proper gear and setup.

 

[Franky Family]

Define "bloat". Are all the endings of Chrono Trigger and Star Ocean 2 bloat or is it a strength? Japanese RPGs are just as guilty of bloat but it's a different form of bloat. All those Chocobo mini games or stereotypical "beach vacations" or dating simulator elements or lengthy wordy cutscenes or whatever could be considered bloat too. It comes down to the quality of the content.

Hmm... For video games, I've only experienced a ton of bloat in BOTW and TOTK. In my way of describing it, bloat is an excessive amount of nearly useless tasks or sidequests that don't add much to the plot or game's story or much of anything at all in the game. Bloat to me is vapid content that overstays its welcome and has you questioning why it's there and why is there so much of it. Like in the NS Zelda games, the Korok Seeds will always be bloat to me after you max out your slots. At some point, they are virtually useless. The best games of all time (that have an excellent stories) do a great job of connecting all that happens within the game, to something important. I don't expect everything to be connected, or for every sidequest and whatnot to align with the story or main characters and stuff like that

But I do expect the time spent playing any game to equate to a fun time exploring a fascinating and/or immersive world of its own that is highly creative and unique in comparison to all other games. I don't mind traversing expansive overworlds as long as the trekking, distances traveled are well worth the time in the end; if the pay off is good. But if I explore for twenty or thirty minutes at a time and after the 60th hour or 70th hour of playing nothing excites me any longer; if I feel like it's all been seen and pretty much done already, then what was the point of developing everything in such large quantity if it doesn't leave any kind of lasting impression? I can play Ocarina of Time and be in awe of everything just from looking at things and recalling all the incredible/shocking/unusual/epic etc things that took place there. WRPGs, I am a bit skeptical of them because that "been there done that, this is kind of boring" kind of feeling should never arise in a player's mind when playing an adventure game. And those WRPGs are enormous in scope from the handful I've seen. Even if it is open world (which are extremely difficult to pull off), no player should have to yearn for anything while playing. Video games are supposed to be designed to be amazing and fun the entire way through. Games like Skyrim, Fallout 4, Fallout New Vegas look like WRPGs that are worth every hour poured into a playthrough. Oblivion also looked fun

I thought the beach vacation area in FFVII (original) was great. Not sure how the remakes do it but that area is essentially a costal beach paradise resort, very pleasant and relaxing from all the time I spent there taking in the sights and talking to the other visitors and workers, etc. Costa del Sol. That place was great because it's the one place where you can go that is supposed to be carefree and relaxing but at the end of the game you see what a great vacation resort spot like that can turn into when there is little to no hope. Del Sol had purpose and overall was a fun time, I still remember the little kids playing soccer outside, the item stand towards the back right portion above the beach, the beach and ocean, and there was a bar sort of restaurant area as well iirc with a hotel on the second floor. The Chocobo minigames were just minigames where you could earn things to make your playthrough a bit easier when battling bosses, help stock up your inventory with good items, etc. I can't call them bloat, because if you do them you can land some outstanding items. The problem there is, they take a ton of time grinding. But eventually, they lead to something great and powerful with enough time spent playing them

 

[Franky Family]

@HE1NZ @DonDonDonPata sorry fellas, but I'm going to have to hand you the casual L with the WRPG being better than JRPGs take. It's just that simple lads. I looked at almost all the games you mentioned Don, and their art styles are dirt. Hand me your top 10 WRPGs of all time and maybe we can talk. Visuals aren't everything but some of these WRPGs are hideous judging by the screenshots I've checked out

 

[Dacon]

Define "bloat". Are all the endings of Chrono Trigger and Star Ocean 2 bloat or is it a strength? Japanese RPGs are just as guilty of bloat but it's a different form of bloat. All those Chocobo mini games or stereotypical "beach vacations" or dating simulator elements or lengthy wordy cutscenes or whatever could be considered bloat too. It comes down to the quality of the content.

Speaking personally, I have only completed a handful of the bigger 100+ hour JRPGs over the years. I tend to bounce off the really lengthy ones and yet I replay many of the shorter <50hr JRPGs for a total well above the 100hr mark.

But I could name dozens of western RPGs that each ate up 100+ hours with plenty more to see and do in future replays. That's the nature of the western side of things, you simply have bigger more replayable games built for replay ability beyond simply having different ending cutscenes. Yet that's their downside…. It can be harder to get sucked in immediately and to grapple with all the systems at once, so I often feel like I'm playing the game sub-optimally while I figure things out.

Look up some of the games mentioned earlier in the thread: if you want to control a full party from a bird's eye view, you have lots of options like Rogue Trader 40K, Jagged Alliance 3, Pillars of Eternity 2, Pathfinder, Baldur's Gate 3, etc

Then there's the roguelike / Diablo branch of Western RPGs like Path of Exile, Diablo, Titan Quest, Grim Dawn, etc

Then you have action RPGs in first person or third person like Skyrim, Outward, Elex, Witcher series, Mount & Blade, etc

Lots of options. If you love RPGs there's no reason not to look into the (vast) western side of RPGs and find something that intrigues you

Rebirth is the most bloated unfun JRPG I've ever fucking played, and I've put like 100s of hours in ES,Persona games, Dragon Age, The Witcher, Cyberpunk and Souls games.

Bloat is busy work bullshit that's is not fun or meaningful to play, so it's not fair when people use that term just for length alone.