[El Rey]

This may sound like a joke, but it's not, we need more diversity of characters in videogames.

I mean look at fighting game rosters like Street Fighter 5 vs Street Fighter 6 and you can immediately see the impact on a diverse lineup of characters.
I love Street Fighter 5, it's my favorite fighting game of all time, but there's a reason it's jokingly referred to as Blonde Fighter 5.
Some of these characters like Falke, Lucia, Karin, Mika, Cammy, Kolin, all look incredibly similar whereas the most interesting characters (imo) Laura, Abigail and Menat have unique appearances.

We need more "diverse" characters like these:

NOT like these:

What's wrong with these?
They're just unattractive and unappealing character designs and they all look similar and androgynous. Almost no femininity in any of them, they're all square hipped and broad shouldered.
They're boring and often miscast. Look at Amanda Waller from Suicide Squad (top left of Debra Wilson in that collection of her) versus her animated film version:

In the animated film, they took a character that's just "angry black woman" and turned her into something unique and different, and while not attractive, it's a badass design, like a female bullish Kingpin.

Remember when games all looked like this:

and now they look like this

At the end of the day, videogames like any other media needs exciting and appealing characters.

We keep on ending up in this situation where they get hung up on these cookie cutter boring as looks like strong shaved head white guy, which is now whatever the hell this "gender neutral" haircut is called black guy/masculine black girl.
In an attempt to diversify, they've ended up created the most boring "diverse" characters ever.
They all look exactly the fucking same.
I want white, black, asian, arab, hell give us aboriginal character designs but make them unique and appealing.

Part of the reason Marvel Rivals is appealing to alot of people I imagine is that it has a very diverse (in more ways than one) roster that is visually appealing and even attractive in some cases.

The tldr here is, we need diversity in videogames but not this bullshit.

Looks like a robot black man trying to roleplay as a black woman.

Or even Redfall's Layla, which was a flop for many reasons:

Simple yet fun style, good base design actually but of course her face looks like a skinny white dude with blackface on:

versus Storm in Marvel Rivals - strong yet sexy, literally bursting with femininity, there's no confusion here that is badass a weather goddess we're looking at here.

Anyways, that's my rant. Kisses.

 

[WesternBlood]

Remember when games all looked like this:

Remember when games sold and didn't castigate the actual audience of said games?

By the way, that cherry picked image ignores the actual diverse set of characters in games up to that year to make a political statement to push Intersectionality and DEI Slop as an argument to what we are seeing today.

Racism and Sexism was on it's way out until grievance crybullies decided to sucker punch everyone who were working towards a color blind and society.

 

[El Rey]

Remember when games sold and didn't castigate the actual audience of said games?

By the way, that cherry picked image ignores the actual diverse set of characters in games up to that year to make a political statement to push Intersectionality and DEI Slop as an argument to what we are seeing today.

Racism and Sexism was on it's way out until grievance crybullies decided to sucker punch everyone who were working towards a color blind and society.

I was actually looking for a different image, I think it was roughly 2006-2009 where we had nothing but shaved heads and fauxhawk guys that all looked exactly the same as protags for every title.
"decided to sucker punch everyone who were working towards a color blind and society."
This is the irony of the situation, they didn't create a color blind society, they created an extremely color focused society.
Instead of creating interesting characters they now create stereotypical transish black character with that spaghetti hair and if you dislike the design then you're racist.

 

[WesternBlood]

I was actually looking for a different image, I think it was roughly 2006-2009 where we had nothing but shaved heads and fauxhawk guys that all looked exactly the same as protags for every title.
"decided to sucker punch everyone who were working towards a color blind and society."
This is the irony of the situation, they didn't create a color blind society, they created an extremely color focused society.
Instead of creating interesting characters they now create stereotypical transish black character with that spaghetti hair and if you dislike the design then you're racist.

I remember that time period, because that image appeared on NeoGaf. I was in that thread and saw more than one aggregate image of game characters that proved it was being used to push politics as a counter (EDIT: i'm currently looking for that specific thread on NeoGaf, let's see if my google-fu is good enough). It cause a lot of gripes and was right before Moderation decided regressive left voices were the only ones worthy of being heard.

Even funnier was when the thread started a meta-commentary when someone posted an aggregate of Japanese game characters and the difficulty dummies got angry that they all looked the same as well, in addition to being "too white washed" even though that is how Japan views characters throughout their history of art.

 

[Pyrate]

I never really cared or ever saw the benefit in diversity or "representation", and I say this as a not white and not western person, always thought that it's a marketing term that's necessairly maliciously used by the corporations to get more money. And I still think whoever believes in this altruistically is a moron. DEI or otherwise.

Until this post, that is, if diversity means Marvel Rivals characters, then I'm right behind you.

 

[LtGoose]

I always play as females in any game I can.

1. They have smaller hit boxes

2.

 

[Zefah]

I just want game creators to be able to create what they want, not what a bunch of politically biased consultants tell them they should make.

 

[WesternBlood]

Here is one of the threads that discussed Japanese characters from 2006:

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/why-do-the-characters-in-most-anime-look-western-european.118463/

@MetalAlien sighting in that thread, as well.

From 2015:

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/japanese-character-designs-can-someone-explain-this-to-me.1120086/

This kind of shit was being argued more and more on Neogaf, as people who disagreed with the politics behind those wanting to subvert the industry, and those who disagreed were getting banned. At the end of the day, Ugly Men in Dresses who will never be women wanted to be represented which led to making art ugly on purpose. Using sexism was a trojan horse to loft up the "male gaze" as being a problem as well.

Big thread from 2014, first post invokes Anita Sarkeesian and has a counter to her "noticing" astro-turf Feminist arguments:

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/why-are-there-still-so-many-white-men-in-video-games.837374/

 

[WesternBlood]

Neogaf January 7th, 2024:

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/in-hindsight-what-was-going-on-with-character-design-during-the-hd-ps3-x360-era.1665525/

Interesting timing, hmm?

 

[El Rey]

I remember that time period, because that image appeared on NeoGaf. I was in that thread and saw more than one aggregate image of game characters that proved it was being used to push politics as a counter (EDIT: i'm currently looking for that specific thread on NeoGaf, let's see if my google-fu is good enough). It cause a lot of gripes and was right before Moderation decided regressive left voices were the only ones worthy of being heard.

Even funnier was when the thread started a meta-commentary when someone posted an aggregate of Japanese game characters and the difficulty dummies got angry that they all looked the same as well, in addition to being "too white washed" even though that is how Japan views characters throughout their history of art.

My point though still stands. If you had 30 fauxhawk guys in 2-3 years of gaming titles, which it sure felt like at the time, it's boring ass design. If you're going to make a white male character, go for it, but at least make him look unique ffs and not this shit they're doing lately where they're just covered in tattoos and piercings.

Take Ezio Auditore, such a simple yet awesome design

versus this which was the style of the time

These two characters look identical.

Nathan Drake was a fantastic and unique character design at the time until everybody started copying him.

Diversity in design is a good thing, my problem is these fucking companies love taking the trendy look and blanket applying it across the board.

 

[El Rey]

Neogaf January 7th, 2024:

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/in-hindsight-what-was-going-on-with-character-design-during-the-hd-ps3-x360-era.1665525/

Interesting timing, hmm?

That is actually funny as fuck considering I never look at GAF for anything. I only ever open it when someone like you posts a link to it, usually to watch people get banned for some absurdity.

 

[WesternBlood]

My point though still stands. If you had 30 fauxhawk guys in 2-3 years of gaming titles, which it sure felt like at the time, it's boring ass design. If you're going to make a white male character, go for it, but at least make him look unique ffs and not this shit they're doing lately where they're just covered in tattoos and piercings.

Take Ezio Auditore, such a simple yet awesome design

versus this which was the style of the time

These two characters look identical.

Nathan Drake was a fantastic and unique character design at the time until everybody started copying him.

Diversity in design is a good thing, my problem is these fucking companies love taking the trendy look and blanket applying it across the board.

Now look at Streetfighter and every other game that had characters not fitting that stereotype.

Again, back when games sold and politics wasn't being pushed by crybullies. The design you are discussing were in games that actually sold, and it wasn't because of the specific design. Gears of War had a grizzled design because of the world the story took place in, and not everyone in that game had Faux-hawks. Cole-Train comes to mind, specifically.

 

[El Rey]

Now look at Streetfighter and every other game that had characters not fitting that stereotype.

Again, back when games sold and politics weren't being pushed by crybullies.

Street Fighter was my opening example. You're agreeing with me in a way that feels like you're arguing with me, I'm confused and slightly aroused.

 

[WesternBlood]

Street Fighter was my opening example. You're agreeing with me in a way that feels like you're arguing with me, I'm confused and slightly aroused.

I'm not agreeing with you. The argument isn't as sound as you are making and it was pointed out during the time it was made. I may have the counter image to your "every game protagonist" is the same that was used in the thread I remember on my harddrive at home, possibly.

 

[DonDonDonPata]

The joke of it all…. The character matters least.

We played as space ships, pixelated mutants, as well as fully 3D katamari blobs. The character is just there as a placeholder. The player is who matters.

The best way to put the player first isn't to pander to their skin color or gender or political radicalism. That's literally the dumbest idea that has crept into modern entertainment. Put the player first by making a good game that entertains them. Center your character design around pleasing the player and making them enjoy your game more.

Entertainers need to learn their place. They have an enviable career making toys for the world. They work in Santa's digital workshop, making games that could last for decades entertaining millions of fans. Yet they willfully choose to squander that to preach at the audience, tear down franchises, cash paychecks while putting out mediocre slop, insult their customers, all while claiming they are making a better society.

Know your place, literal clown. Get in the clown car and make it entertaining. We don't pay you to talk.

While I feel it is a logical thing for a dev to focus on entertaining the paying customer, we literally have companies cramming uglies and cramming ideology into our entertainment in order to "educate" us on the proper things to think. Their words.
Not mine.

 

[TaySan]

I just want game creators to be able to create what they want, not what a bunch of politically biased consultants tell them they should make.

Bingo. Just let people make what they want to make without outside pressure

 

[WesternBlood]

That is actually funny as fuck considering I never look at GAF for anything. I only ever open it when someone like you posts a link to it, usually to watch people get banned for some absurdity.

Something must be in the water.

 

[El Rey]

I'm not agreeing with you. The argument isn't as sound as you are making and it was pointed out during the time it was made. I may have the counter image to your "every game protagonist" is the same that was used in the thread I remember on my harddrive at home, possibly.

I feel like you're agreeing with me completely, so in the end, isn't that what matters?
Street Fighter roster again is the perfect hugging ground, diversity galore filled with awesome and unique character designs.

The joke of it all…. The character matters least.

We played as space ships, pixelated mutants, as well as fully 3D katamari blobs. The character is just there as a placeholder. The player is who matters.

The best way to put the player first isn't to pander to their skin color or gender or political radicalism. That's literally the dumbest idea that has crept into modern entertainment. Put the player first by making a good game that entertains them. Center your character design around pleasing the player and making them enjoy your game more.

While I feel this is a logical thing for a dev to do, we literally have companies cramming uglies and cramming ideology into our entertainment in order to "educate" us on the proper things to think. Their words.
Not mine.

it depends on the title and genre to your point, in some cases, I agree, but in others, the characters are the most important part. Take the Telltale Walking Dead example, those characters are what make the entire game.

Bingo. Just let people make what they want to make without outside pressure

To an extent, because right now if you let "people make what they want" we'll have Debra Wilson in every fucking game.

 

[WesternBlood]

I feel like you're agreeing with me completely, so in the end, isn't that what matters?
Street Fighter roster again is the perfect hugging ground, diversity galore filled with awesome and unique character designs.

Because at that time there were games where you weren't even playing as humans (as has been the case in every era of vidya). That point was proved and is in the gotcha in the image I'm talking about. For some reason, the left jumped on a cherry picked image to rail against the "huwhite bald grizzled man" and ignored stuff that wasn't fitting their narrative.

 

[El Rey]

Because at that time there were games where you weren't even playing as humans (as has been the case in every era of vidya). That point was proved and is in the gotcha in the image I'm talking about. For some reason, the left jumped on a cherry picked image to rail against the "huwhite bald grizzled man" and ignored stuff that wasn't fitting their narrative.

Dude I just used the image to show an example, it was not the bread and butter of my post, that's why it's at the bottom. The entire point is we need unique and exciting character designs otherwise we end up with these bland blanket designs, which I also demonstrated in the black male image afterward. I'm not making any leftist argument, I'm making an point for good character design.

 

[TaySan]

I feel like you're agreeing with me completely, so in the end, isn't that what matters?
Street Fighter roster again is the perfect hugging ground, diversity galore filled with awesome and unique character designs.

it depends on the title and genre to your point, in some cases, I agree, but in others, the characters are the most important part. Take the Telltale Walking Dead example, those characters are what make the entire game.

To an extent, because right now if you let "people make what they want" we'll have Debra Wilson in every fucking game.

If that's what the developers want to make then go ahead. If the games fail then that's on them.

 

[WesternBlood]

Dude I just used the image to show an example, it was not the bread and butter of my post, that's why it's at the bottom. The entire point is we need unique and exciting character designs otherwise we end up with these bland blanket designs, which I also demonstrated in the black male image afterward. I'm not making any leftist argument, I'm making an point for good character design.

The point I am making, is that we always had that which the left said we didn't; now we aren't allowed to have good design because "muh representation."

Now we have DEI Slop by Sweet Baby Inc and others causing the actual problem with art design and the only salient argument to be made is to kick DEI out of culture and let us get back to where we were before the grizzled bald man argument was even considered as the standard, when at that EXACT time the image was aggregated we already had good character design; rendering the complaint moot.

 

[El Rey]

If that's what they want to make then go ahead. If the games fail then that's on them.

See but your comment there implies that everything is like a Neil Druckmann situation where he's practically Jesus at Sony and can make whatever the hell he wants.
The majority of titles have TEAMS of people with different opinions and executive reviews, and product testing, etc.
A lot of times these hideous characters are just one tranny's fantasy and not reflective of what the whole team wants to make.
Look at the Professor from Concord.

Executives especially should step in and say, no that's hideous.
Case in point, AC Valhalla Marketing, Eivor is a FEMALE character but they advertised the fanfiction MALE Eivor all over for Valhalla, why? Because someone said hey, the badass chad viking will sell better.
Someone should have stepped in and said, "hey maybe a female viking with this storyline makes no fucking sense" (which it doesn't).

 

[El Rey]

The point I am making, is that we always had that which the left said we didn't; now we aren't allowed to have good design because "muh representation."

Now we have DEI Slop by Sweet Baby Inc and others causing the actual problem with art design and the only salient argument to be made is to kick DEI out of culture and let us get back to where we were before the grizzled bald man argument was even considered as the standard, when at that EXACT time the image was aggregated we already had good character design; rendering the complaint moot.

And you're right, we did have that and it was great. Like I said, diversity in games is great! Just how we used to have it. The problem is this bullshit being sold to us these days isn't diversity, it's blatant racism in some cases and hideous characters.

 

[DonDonDonPata]

it depends on the title and genre to your point, in some cases, I agree, but in others, the characters are the most important part. Take the Telltale Walking Dead example, those characters are what make the entire game.

No, the character is a placeholder for the player to experience the writing and the story. Would the game have been fundamentally better or worse if the characters were a different gender or race? Of course not. The attributes of the character are incidental, not central.

Was it really IMPORTANT that Lara Croft was British? Of course not. The entire game would've played exactly the same way if she was black or Asian or whatever.

I like a lot of videogame characters, but in the ranking of all other things, the character you're playing matters less than almost anything else. Games aren't movies. The most important "character" is the player, and everyone else is just the supporting cast. Games have gotten too Hollywood by emphasizing the cast of characters, in the same way that many 90s devs got too hyper focused on making "the perfect mascot" instead of just making a good game.

 

[TaySan]

See but your comment there implies that everything is like a Neil Druckmann situation where he's practically Jesus at Sony and can make whatever the hell he wants.
The majority of titles have TEAMS of people with different opinions and executive reviews, and product testing, etc.
A lot of times these hideous characters are just one tranny's fantasy and not reflective of what the whole team wants to make.
Look at the Professor from Concord.

Executives especially should step in and say, no that's hideous.
Case in point, AC Valhalla Marketing, Eivor is a FEMALE character but they advertised the fanfiction MALE Eivor all over for Valhalla, why? Because someone said hey, the badass chad viking will sell better.
Someone should have stepped in and said, "hey maybe a female viking with this storyline makes no fucking sense" (which it doesn't).

Dude by "they" I mean the developers not just one person. I don't want game design to be swayed by one political ideology or the other outside of the developers. Let the developers make whatever game whey want and the market can decide if it's a success or not

 

[MetalAlien]

Here is one of the threads that discussed Japanese characters from 2006:

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/why-do-the-characters-in-most-anime-look-western-european.118463/

@MetalAlien sighting in that thread, as well.

From 2015:

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/japanese-character-designs-can-someone-explain-this-to-me.1120086/

This kind of shit was being argued more and more on Neogaf, as people who disagreed with the politics behind those wanting to subvert the industry, and those who disagreed were getting banned. At the end of the day, Ugly Men in Dresses who will never be women wanted to be represented which led to making art ugly on purpose. Using sexism was a trojan horse to loft up the "male gaze" as being a problem as well.

Big thread from 2014, first post invokes Anita Sarkeesian and has a counter to her "noticing" astro-turf Feminist arguments:

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/why-are-there-still-so-many-white-men-in-video-games.837374/

I remember that s***. That was not long after I rejoined they upgraded the forum software and I lurked for like a year.

 

[El Rey]

No, the character is a placeholder for the player to experience the writing and the story. Would the game have been fundamentally better or worse if the characters were a different gender or race? Of course not. The attributes of the character are incidental, not central.

Was it really IMPORTANT that Lara Croft was British? Of course not. The entire game would've played exactly the same way if she was black or Asian or whatever.

I like a lot of videogame characters, but in the ranking of all other things, the character you're playing matters less than almost anything else. Games aren't movies. The most important "character" is the player, and everyone else is just the supporting cast. Games have gotten too Hollywood by emphasizing the cast of characters, in the same way that many 90s devs got too hyper focused on making "the perfect mascot" instead of just making a good game.

Recent games disprove your point though.
Take Ghost of Tsushima versus Assassin's Creed Shadows.
If you played as a white guy instead of an asian in Ghost of Tsushima then that story instantly becomes The Last Samurai and you're Tom Cruise.

Assassin's Creed Shadows is unappealing to many because that character makes no sense in the setting.
How are you supposed to stealth kill anyone as a GIANT black man in GIANT armor in an ALL asian country?
The second someone finds a dead person very visibly bludgeoned to death by a giant (which if you haven't seen the Yasuke executing blows videos you should) logically that character would be done for.

 

[El Rey]

Dude by "they" I mean the developers not just one person. I don't want game design to be swayed by one political ideology or the other outside of the developers. Let the developers make whatever game whey want and the market can decide if it's a success or not

But again, take recent examples "they" is one person in a lot of these cases. The Professor and Druckmann are two very recent examples. It's well known in the gaming industry now that you're not allowed to speak against these designs in fear of being branded racist. Developers need to make better products or they will fail, the problem is as my dear friend @WesternBlood pointed out is, there's gay shit in the water and everybody's drinking from the SBI tip. So no, I don't think it's as simple as "let devs make what they want"; this mentality has led to how many layoffs in the past year? People need to be vocal and stop this bullshit from being made. Character design is a HUGE portion of a games' marketability.

 

[TaySan]

But again, take recent examples "they" is one person in a lot of these cases. The Professor and Druckmann are two very recent examples. It's well known in the gaming industry now that you're not allowed to speak against these designs in fear of being branded racist. Developers need to make better products or they will fail, the problem is as my dear friend @WesternBlood pointed out is, there's gay shit in the water and everybody's drinking from the SBI tip. So no, I don't think it's as simple as "let devs make what they want"; this mentality has led to how many layoffs in the past year? People need to be vocal and stop this bullshit from being made. Character design is a HUGE portion of a games' marketability.

Let the free market sort it out. Don't want layoffs? Make better games

 

[Arkam]

Fuck diversity
Fuck inclusion
Fuck representation
And fuck ANYONE telling creators what to do!

Let them create, then let the consumer decide if they want it or not. Its that simple people.

 

[El Rey]

Let the free market sort it out.

I got that and I disagree. We've lost a ton of amazing game development studios with the mentality.
Corporate leadership needs to do their job and make better informed decisions to stop this bullshit from coming to market.
Audiences need to do their part and push back on this bullshit vocally in every channel we can to prevent more of our beloved studios from getting closed.
A few trial and errors, sure, but Ubisoft, what was once one of the BIGGEST video game publishers and developers in the world is now about to be bankrupt because of this mentality.

Fuck diversity
Fuck inclusion
Fuck representation
And fuck ANYONE telling creators what to do!

Let them create, then let the consumer decide if they want it or not. Its that simple people.

To my good friend Tay's point, letting them create what they want is going to end with them being broke af.

 

[Arkam]

To my good friend Tay's point, letting them create what they want is going to end with them being broke af.

Then new creators will take their place.

One of the most important things I have learned over my game dev career, is ignore what people say they want. They do not know what they want, but feel they should be heard and take a position. If you give them what they say they want, they will not be happy. So just do what YOU think is best and let the cards land where they may.

 

[WesternBlood]

Then new creators will take their place.

One of the most important things I have learned over my game dev career, is ignore what people say they want. They do not know what they want, but feel they should be heard and take a position. If you give them what they say they want, they will not be happy. So just do what YOU think is best and let the cards land where they may.

Evergreen.

 

[regawdless]

Oh, look who's chin-phobic.

 

[DonDonDonPata]

Recent games disprove your point though.
Take Ghost of Tsushima versus Assassin's Creed Shadows.
If you played as a white guy instead of an asian in Ghost of Tsushima then that story instantly becomes The Last Samurai and you're Tom Cruise.

Assassin's Creed Shadows is unappealing to many because that character makes no sense in the setting.
How are you supposed to stealth kill anyone as a GIANT black man in GIANT armor in an ALL asian country?
The second someone finds a dead person very visibly bludgeoned to death by a giant (which if you haven't seen the Yasuke executing blows videos you should) logically that character would be done for.

You're missing the point: did you enjoy the game because he was Asian or because the other elements of the game were good? That's why I said character matters least. I didn't say characters don't matter at all. I said character matters least. And especially that the racial or gender attributes of a character matter least of all. I said this several times.

 

[TaySan]

I got that and I disagree. We've lost a ton of amazing game development studios with the mentality.
Corporate leadership needs to do their job and make better informed decisions to stop this bullshit from coming to market.
Audiences need to do their part and push back on this bullshit vocally in every channel we can to prevent more of our beloved studios from getting closed.
A few trial and errors, sure, but Ubisoft, what was once one of the BIGGEST video game publishers and developers in the world is now about to be bankrupt because of this mentality.

To my good friend Tay's point, letting them create what they want is going to end with them being broke af.

We are doing our part by not buying their games. To be frank, whether they succeed or not is not our problem there will be others that take their place. I just don't believe we should tell creators what to make or we are no better than them

 

[Boss Mog]

I actually see a ton of diversity in the the white guy collage.

 

[Kadayi]

I don't give two shits about what sex or race a character is as long as it makes sense contextually within the frame of the world-building, and less virtue-signalling and cack-handed political statements by people largely ill-equipped to treat such matters with any degree of nuance. Writing for the most part in games isn't great. That is not to say there aren't the odd exceptions (Disco Elysium springs to mind) but generally it is serviceable at best compared to say the writing in your high-end Cable TV Dramas.

 

[Franky Family]

Free Banjo-Kazooie you GREEN RATS!!!!!!