[regawdless]

After all the back and forth talk about the loading times In Ratchet & Clank Rift Apart, there's an interesting twist now. Let's recap.

- Game launches with a flawed PC version. Bugged reflections, bugged textures, slower loading times than PS5.
- The platform wars start, PCMRs all cry and say it's the devs fault, muh PC specs, Ponies say PS5 architecture is just too good, cry louder.
- Devs fix all the visual bugs, textures, reflections etc. but loading remains a PS5 win.
- Loading seems to be bugged though as well because the 5500 MB/s SSD in the PS5 loads faster than a 7300 MB/s drive on PC, and on PC loading times stop improving after 3500 MB/s SSDs, there's no scaling.

Now turns out if you delete a file, the cache.pso, faster NVMEs can finally take advantage and load faster:

Disable Direct Storage on PC and remove the cache.pso file, even a 3500 MB/s SSD loads slightly faster than the PS5 with its 5500MB/s SSD.

Which is surprising because the PS5 should load faster than a PC with a slower SSD. And also surprising, because the simple deletion of a file improves loading and gets rid of all the stutter without negative impacts.... why is this still not officially fixed by the devs?

 

[Dacon]

big kek

 

[Eneru]

Tbh I'm happy that I don't care about all this fanboy ahit anymore. There's a less than a second difference. Who cares?

 

[Stifler's Mom]

So, was the much touted PS5 SSD any kind of game changer at all?

 

[regawdless]

Tbh I'm happy that I don't care about all this fanboy ahit anymore. There's a less than a second difference. Who cares?

I added some fanboi language for entertainment value, but my main interest is the tech and port politics side.

The difference occurred in the beginning of these sequences, with weird hitches on PC. Even with the fastest SSDs, on PC there was a stutter and a noticable delay when these sequences loaded. It didn't feel good and took you out of the experience. While on PS5, it was seamless, you definitely felt the difference.
As I mentioned above, SSDs on PC saw no improvement at all after 3500 MB/s SSDs. Which was curious, seemed like a hard lock on loading speed, from a very experienced and well versed dev. They fixed all the various bugs rather quickly, did a good job there. Strangely though, even months after release, they didn't touch loading times at all. While loading times and the SSD being one of the main marketing talking points of the PS5 and for this port, it was the biggest topic of the time, everyone talked about loading times and how it ran on ancient HDD drives.

And now people just delete one file and it's fixed. I think that's interesting from a technical perspective, especially because now a slower drive on PC loads faster than the PS5. Some weird stuff happening.

 

[regawdless]

So, was the much touted PS5 SSD any kind of game changer at all?

Having a fast SSD with a good architecture is a big game changer compared to the incredibly slow PS4 drive. At the time of the PS5 release, most PC gamers didn't have SSDs yet. So yeah, I'd say it was a big deal, but not some huge magic win, especially because we've seen the Series X being more or less on par. The difference was overblown by console wars.

 

[Stilton Disco]

So the obvious question that pops into my mind is what precisely is that file meant to do?

As much as I like to take the word of randoms online telling me to delete files to make things run faster, and that there's no downsides to it, trust me bro, it would be nice to know why it's there and what it does before getting rid of it.

 

[regawdless]

So the obvious question that pops into my mind is what precisely is that file meant to do?

As much as I like to take the word of randoms online telling me to delete files to make things run faster, and that there's no downsides to it, trust me bro, it would be nice to know why it's there and what it does before getting rid of it.

It's related to the shader compilation and streaming. You have to run the game once with the file being present, then it'll compile the shaders and store it in another file. Once this happened, you can delete the cache.pso and boom, game runs faster.

 

[Stilton Disco]

It's related to the shader compilation and streaming. You have to run the game once with the file being present, then it'll compile the shaders and store it in another file. Once this happened, you can delete the cache.pso and boom, game runs faster.

Interesting. Also definitely makes it sound like a bug, not intended design. Hopefully now it's been found it can be fixed. Might even improve the PS5 version.

 

[regawdless]

Interesting. Also definitely makes it sound like a bug, not intended design. Hopefully now it's been found it can be fixed. Might even improve the PS5 version.

A lot of weirdness happening with the port. The heavily advertised Direct Storage, which in theory improves asset streaming, actually has a negative impact on performance across the board here.

The cache.pso thing won't have any effect on the PS5 version, it's purely a PC thing. Because consoles don't have any shader compilation step, the devs know the exact hardware configuration and ship the games with pre-compiled shaders for the known hardware with the game files.

It's all a learning experience for the devs tbh. Because Sony first party titles didn't have PC versions in mind initially, a lot of shaders don't even work at all when porting the games. That's why it's so challenging. We've seen it in TLOU, where the ground meshes and ground shaders didn't work properly at first. Or in Ratchet, where they weren't able to port the water over to PC. You have nicely animated water that reacts to the players movements on PS5, while it's static and completely different on PC because they had to do it from the ground up and for the one level where you actually swim, didn't bother to do it correctly.

 

[Stilton Disco]

A lot of weirdness happening with the port. The heavily advertised Direct Storage, which in theory improves asset streaming, actually has a negative impact on performance across the board here.

The cache.pso thing won't have any effect on the PS5 version, it's purely a PC thing. Because consoles don't have any shader compilation step, the devs know the exact hardware configuration and ship the games with pre-compiled shaders for the known hardware with the game files.

It's all a learning experience for the devs tbh. Because Sony first party titles didn't have PC versions in mind initially, a lot of shaders don't even work at all when porting the games. That's why it's so challenging. We've seen it in TLOU, where the ground meshes and ground shaders didn't work properly at first. Or in Ratchet, where they weren't able to port the water over to PC. You have nicely animated water that reacts to the players movements on PS5, while it's static and completely different on PC because they had to do it from the ground up and for the one level where you actually swim, didn't bother to do it correctly.

Interesting. Also you're really strengthening up my stance that console exclusives getting PC ports is a terrible idea, that's not worth the time and effort, will potentially cause developers to not play to console hardwares strengths, as well as obviously making people (like me) see less reason to buy the console.

I really want Playstation and Xbox to knock this shit off. It just devalues both and is not delivering better games for anyone.

 

[regawdless]

Interesting. Also you're really strengthening up my stance that console exclusives getting PC ports is a terrible idea, that's not worth the time and effort, will potentially cause developers to not play to console hardwares strengths, as well as obviously making people (like me) see less reason to buy the console.

I really want Playstation and Xbox to knock this shit off. It just devalues both and is not delivering better games for anyone.

Not really, it's just a workflow thing to have PCs in mind when working on an engine and shaders, to make them compatible and portable. Won't impact consoles in a negative way, it's about formats and stuff. Currently, PC ports are a lot of work because devs need to port code that wasn't intended to be ported. When taken into account from the start, there won't be an issue. Consoles and PC have the same architecture since PS4 gen, it's not a big deal.

 

[Stilton Disco]

No really, it's just a workflow thing to have PCs in mind when working on an engine and shaders, to make them compatible and portable. Won't impact consoles in a negative way, it's about formats and stuff. Currently, PC ports are a lot of work because devs need to port code that wasn't intended to be ported. When taken into account from the start, there won't be an issue. Consoles and PC have the same architecture since PS4 gen, it's not a big deal.

Yet that clearly isn't the case. As you say, the issues here are because R&C was not built with PC in mind, only PS5.

If these consoles and PC were truly the same architecture and this can achieve the same results with a single ideal approach, then that would have been the case to begin with, and these conflicting design philosophies wouldn't have existed to have caused these errors in the first place.

The very fact you're saying they need to think about PC development requirements from the ground up will mean they couldn't focus solely on the unique strengths and weaknesses of the hardware of the console.

We already saw last gen that the PS4 punched well above it's weight compared to PC, and that that only improved as the generation went on, while PC specs like the 750 ti, and the which initially kept relatively close results to the PS4, quickly fell behind.

Targeting a single device will always deliver better results than trying to optimise for the infinity of potential PC specs.

 

[regawdless]

Yet that clearly isn't the case. As you say, the issues here are because R&C was not built with PC in mind, only PS5.

If these consoles and PC were truly the same architecture and this can achieve the same results with a single ideal approach, then that would have been the case to begin with, and these conflicting design philosophies wouldn't have existed to have caused these errors in the first place.

The very fact you're saying they need to think about PC development requirements from the ground up will mean they couldn't focus solely on the unique strengths and weaknesses of the hardware of the console.

We already saw last gen that the PS4 punched well above it's weight compared to PC, and that that only improved as the generation went on, while PC specs like the 750 ti, and the which initially kept relatively close results to the PS4, quickly fell behind.

Targeting a single device will always deliver better results than trying to optimise for the infinity of potential PC specs.

The issues with the ports are workflow related, you can handle formats, compiling etc. in different ways. What I was talking about in regards to Ratchet and Clank or TLOU for example is not about strength and weaknesses of the hardware. It's simply about the way shaders for example are being handled, has nothing to do with the quality, it's about compatibility. There isn't a magic PS5 way to handle shaders better, it'll be the same result.

Red Dead Redemption 2 doesn't look worse than Sony first party titles and is a multiplat game. Sony first party games won't look worse because future PC ports will be taken into account. They will still look very good for the console hardware and "punch above their" weight thanks to smart optimizations and hand crafted settings.

 

[CAPTAIN RAINCOAT]

SSD does help load you faster into a game but I don't think it ever results in secret sauce level experiences that PlayStation fanboys drool over

 

[regawdless]

SSD does help load you faster into a game but I don't think it ever results in secret sauce level experiences that PlayStation fanboys drool over

Well in this specific use case of Ratchet & Clank, where they're jumping between worlds with completely different assets inside of seconds, you absolutely need an SSD or it's a horrible experience. Same for games with very fast traversal. But in general, only very few games really need it.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Well in this specific use case of Ratchet & Clank, where they're jumping between worlds with completely different assets inside of seconds, you absolutely need an SSD or it's a horrible experience. Same for games with very fast traversal. But in general, only very few games really need it.

My question wasn't that much about SSDs in general, but the PS5's one.
They made it look like they have the holy grail of SSDs, and that this alone will crush the Xbox Series X into oblivion.

 

[regawdless]

My question wasn't that much about SSDs in general, but the PS5's one.
They made it look like they have the holy grail of SSDs, and that this alone will crush the Xbox Series X into oblivion.

It's slightly faster than on Series X but that's it. A lot of the console war stuff wasn't important at all. Even the Series X power advantage is practically not a factor.

 

[and 3 others]

It's slightly faster than on Series X

That's all I needed from this thread.

 

[Sean Mirrsen]

Well in this specific use case of Ratchet & Clank, where they're jumping between worlds with completely different assets inside of seconds, you absolutely need an SSD or it's a horrible experience. Same for games with very fast traversal. But in general, only very few games really need it.

Are they jumping between random worlds and random places completely ad-hoc or is it more of a guided tour with maybe ad-hoc travel between a handful of worlds? Because a number of games did that kind of thing long before R&C Ripped A fart Rift Apart. The only difference I can imagine is that the size of assets nowadays is larger.

 

[regawdless]

Are they jumping between random worlds and random places completely ad-hoc or is it more of a guided tour with maybe ad-hoc travel between a handful of worlds? Because a number of games did that kind of thing long before R&C Ripped A fart Rift Apart. The only difference I can imagine is that the size of assets nowadays is larger.

It's a guided tour, just watch the first video in the first post.

Also during normal gameplay, you can hit crystals at certain spots, for the level to change in an instance, to travel between the dimensions. It's the world size and asset amount that are being loaded inside of one second that couldn't be done before.

 

[Sean Mirrsen]

It's the world size and asset amount that are being loaded inside of one second that couldn't be done before.

Well, more just the asset size, really. World size is irrelevant, you can skippity-hop between entire planets in KSP by jumping to different ships and viewpoints. Asset amount, likewise, means nothing by itself. But because it's a world with lots of highly detailed, large-footprint assets, you get the need for high-performance data delivery.

So it's the same kind of "couldn't be done before" as all the other graphics fidelity things. And unlike some of those things, it's also one that can be overcome with smart design (see: Portal, Prey (the original), etc).

 

[HeresJohnny]

Just a second.

 

[WesternBlood]

Just a second.

 

[Optimus]

So now that we know the PS5 SSD isn't even leveraged to great effect, how do we feel about accepting the PS5 is a <10 TFLOP machine? Are we still in denial about that? I thought I recalled that it can only boost to 10+ TFLOPS for especially intense moments or whatever.

Not saying the PS5 is a bad console, but I still do believe the Series X is a marginally better piece of hardware.

 

[Phil_t98]

Was the file put in there to make it load slower on PC ? And make the PS5 SSD seem faster?

 

[HellforLeather]

Was the file put in there to make it load slower on PC ? And make the PS5 SSD seem faster?

I doubt it. Only the spergiest of sperges is going to make their hardware purchase determination on less than a 1 second difference in the loading time of 1 specific game.

 

[Chozofication]

So now that we know the PS5 SSD isn't even leveraged to great effect, how do we feel about accepting the PS5 is a <10 TFLOP machine? Are we still in denial about that? I thought I recalled that it can only boost to 10+ TFLOPS for especially intense moments or whatever.

Not saying the PS5 is a bad console, but I still do believe the Series X is a marginally better piece of hardware.

Ps5 is better mostly because of its consistent memory bandwidth and higher gpu clocks

Basically not everything scales 1:1 with more compute units but everything does scale with clockspeed

 

[Phil_t98]

I doubt it. Only the spergiest of sperges is going to make their hardware purchase determination on less than a 1 second difference in the loading time of 1 specific game.

So
The question is, what is the file there for and what is its purpose?

If deleting it speeds up the loading why was it in there in the first place?

 

[regawdless]

So
The question is, what is the file there for and what is its purpose?

If deleting it speeds up the loading why was it in there in the first place?

It's there for the shader compilation, which isn't needed for PS5 because the games ship with precompiled shaders. But on PC, it has to be done. You have to start the game once with the file being present. After that, it can be deleted.

 

[regawdless]

That's all I needed from this thread.

I'll make you cum with Cyberpunk

 

[ExpandKong]

Next you're gonna tell me blast processing isn't real

I doubt it. Only the spergiest of sperges is going to make their hardware purchase determination on less than a 1 second difference in the loading time of 1 specific game.

These people exist they're why digital foundry has any kind of success.

 

[WesternBlood]

I'll make you cum with Cyberpunk

How is the S faster than the X? Shouldn't they have parity with Mem Cache loading? WTF Microsoft?!

So Cyberpunk should be purchased for the PS5? *Making Black Friday Notes*

 

[regawdless]

How is the S faster than the X? Shouldn't they have parity with Mem Cache loading? WTF Microsoft?!

So Cyberpunk should be purchased for the PS5? *Making Black Friday Notes*

Lower res assets and less visual fidelity on Series S might result in the slightly faster loading times.

 

[Sean Mirrsen]

How is the S faster than the X? Shouldn't they have parity with Mem Cache loading? WTF Microsoft?!

They have parity in drive performance, but they're loading different assets.

 

[WesternBlood]

Lower res assets and less visual fidelity on Series S might result in the slightly faster loading times.

Ok, so that isn't a real test with all settings being the same. Got it.

 

[regawdless]

Ok, so that isn't a real test with all settings being the same. Got it.

Basically only PS5 and Series X are really comparable here because they are pretty much similar regarding the settings.