[Grinchy]

I feel like for most of my life, most people just knew what we all learned in 6th grade English class without having to really try or think about it. But we've reached a point where it feels like the vast majority of people who write things on the internet don't even know the absolute basics of English grammar.

I'm not talking about complicated grammar rules here. English is a wonky language and there are plenty of legitimately confusing aspects to it. I'm talking about people who don't know there/their/they're, your/you're, etc. I'm talking people who write "could of" or insane shit like "shouldn't of" which means they know what a contraction is but still think of/have are interchangeable words.

When did this shift happen? Did schools stop grading papers after the year 2005 and just give everyone an A and push them through the system?

 

[HariSeldon]

Basically. In the uk standards dropped due to exam league tables. Schools basically cheated looking for the most lenient exam board with the easiest exams, pretending kids had dyslexia so they could have a scribe who would be under pressure to hint at answers, etc. I worked in a school in the UK back in 2010 and all that shit was going on. So yeah schools are fucked.

 

[Bullet Club]

I get why people mix up "could of/should of", it's because of "could've/should've".

Are you a fan of the word "irregardless"?

 

[Stilton Disco]

I feel like for most of my life, most people just knew what we all learned in 6th grade English class without having to really try or think about it. But we've reached a point where it feels like the vast majority of people who write things on the internet don't even know the absolute basics of English grammar.

I'm not talking about complicated grammar rules here. English is a wonky language and there are plenty of legitimately confusing aspects to it. I'm talking about people who don't know there/their/they're, your/you're, etc. I'm talking people who write "could of" or insane shit like "shouldn't of" which means they know what a contraction is but still think of/have are interchangeable words.

When did this shift happen? Did schools stop grading papers after the year 2005 and just give everyone an A and push them through the system?

Pretty much, yeah.

Also average IQ's have been dropping in English speaking countries since around then too, so people are just on average dumber.

The irony being of course that people read and write now more than ever thanks to the internet, but it's also facilitated a complete lack of care in regards to spelling and grammar, as autocorrect and Americanisms proliferate bad habits.

 

[Dr. Farnsgoth]

How do you know that it wasn't always like that before social media? Were you communicating with your friends and family by carrier pigeon?

 

[Soodanim]

I remember learning the difference between there/their/they're and your/you're when I was about 10, and I never forgot.

I like understanding how the English language works a bit more than most, and I get that language changes over time, but I wish people would stop being dumb cunts.

I might as well use this opportunity to say how much I hate the hyperbolic use of the word "Literally". You don't get to use a word that is meant to convey that you're not being hyperbolic as part of the hyperbole. If there's any sort of measurement involved, forget it. I don't want to have to translate from cunt to English and back to find out what you mean.

 

[Grinchy]

How do you know that it wasn't always like that before social media? Were you communicating with your friends and family by carrier pigeon?

No but I was on the internet basically when it became normal for regular people to be on the internet. You'd talk to 7 people at a time in IMs while on AOL. Every one of the fuckers knew English rules that they learned when they were in 6th grade. Even in the early 2000s, people knew how to write at at least a 9th grade level. Not a single person before the year 2010 said "could of" a single time in their entire lives.

Things have changed and it's an obvious change.

 

[Dr. Farnsgoth]

No but I was on the internet basically when it became normal for regular people to be on the internet. You'd talk to 7 people at a time in IMs while on AOL. Every one of the fuckers knew English rules that they learned when they were in 6th grade. Even in the early 2000s, people knew how to write at at least a 9th grade level. Not a single person before the year 2010 said "could of" a single time in their entire lives.

Things have changed and it's an obvious change.

I think in the early days there was a bit of self-selection going on whereby most of the people who could figure out how to use the internet were in the upper quartile of the intelligence bell curve. Nowadays every normie, their illiterate grandma, and their cousin Rohit in the slums of India has access to it.

 

[BFNoise]

As a non native English speaker I'm always amazed how English natives confuse your - you're and they're - their - there. I don't understand how is it possible.

 

[DonDonDonPata]

Lack of reading during childhood development. Seriously. Learning the nuances of a language in class is so boring. Kids are only gonna pick up a percentage of those lessons, no matter how hard you cram it into their ears.

However, if you set aside time for them to read -- as well as read books to them yourself and also actually read things for yourself so they witness your example -- they will excel because they will be reading all kinds of word-configurations and complexities that the avg language teacher will never ever touch on because everything is taught to the lowest common denominator.

 

[brap]

As a non native English speaker I'm always amazed how English natives confuse your - you're and they're - their - there. I don't understand how is it possible.

That's because your not an idiot

 

[BFNoise]

Actually, I see the similar pattern in Russian speakers.

And the reason is quality of material people read. When I was in school all printed books were read and corrected by professional editors and were the example of proper spelling and grammar. It was absolutely impossible to find errors there, except maybe a couple of typos. Now I read modern books sometimes and there are so many grammar or stylistic errors, it's a disaster.
What is worse, children don't like to read books nowadays, they read social networks and learn spelling from illiterates.

 

[HariSeldon]

Lack of reading during childhood development. Seriously. Learning the nuances of a language in class is so boring. Kids are only gonna pick up a percentage of those lessons, no matter how hard you cram it into their ears.

However, if you set aside time for them to read -- as well as read books to them yourself and also actually read things for yourself so they witness your example -- they will excel because they will be reading all kinds of word-configurations and complexities that the avg language teacher will never ever touch on because everything is taught to the lowest common denominator.

Absolutely. An interesting thing btw - wife's mother is a primary school teacher. Kids are arriving for first year lacking basic skills due to parents parking their kids in front of a screen. It's a mess. Basic skills like toileting, feeding, etc, are missing that weren't 10 years ago. It's an absolute shocker. But yeah reading for pleasure makes a huge difference and I credit that in a big way for my breaking out of my frankly very dodgy roots.

I've got a kid on the way and I've started picking up books for him/her already, all the classics esp the wonderful Roald Dahl. Bit early I know but I know that reading with my kids is going to be enormous fun and enormously worthwhile. It's one of the biiiiiig things I'm intent on working hard on.

Oh and one more thing. Phonics is absolute horseshit. It does NOTHING good.

 

[ExpandKong]

If you're upset about English wait until you hear what people today are saying about immunization and basic biology.

 

[DonDonDonPata]

Absolutely. An interesting thing btw - wife's mother is a primary school teacher. Kids are arriving for first year lacking basic skills due to parents parking their kids in front of a screen. It's a mess. Basic skills like toileting, feeding, etc, are missing that weren't 10 years ago. It's an absolute shocker. But yeah reading for pleasure makes a huge difference and I credit that in a big way for my breaking out of my frankly very dodgy roots.

I've got a kid on the way and I've started picking up books for him/her already, all the classics esp the wonderful Roald Dahl. Bit early I know but I know that reading with my kids is going to be enormous fun and enormously worthwhile. It's one of the biiiiiig things I'm intent on working hard on.

Oh and one more thing. Phonics is absolute horseshit. It does NOTHING good.

As much as I despise public schools and teacher unions, I lay even more of the blame on the parents. They are the ones who fail their kids at home, and they are the ones who tolerate if not outright praise the dimwit teachers who lower standards so that De'Shawntay can get his football scholarship. If parents invested a shred of effort into their kids, even public education would drastically improve.

Roald Dahl is great. Both my oldest son and oldest daughter have read several of his books.

Don't ever second-guess yourself and wonder "is this a bit early?"

It isn't. Kids are intelligent and they absorb far more than they can verbally express back to you. Believe me, it's sinking in. Always give them reading material several grades above their current "level", within reason. Some people say "oh but that might snuff out their passion for reading" and perhaps that's true for certain books, but they will have to read and parse things they don't want to read all the time in the real world. Like you said: showing up to school without knowing how to feed yourself or use the toilet is absurd, an obvious failure of the parents. Reading is the same way. Might as well train your kid to read "boring" things so they're inoculated against that sort of boredom. The teacher shouldn't be arguing with your kid, pleading with them to pay attention to an assignment.

 

[HE1NZ]

I'm bothered by people not knowing the difference between lose and loose. Also canon and cannon.

 

[and 3 others]

In my school, kids who were illiterate were bullied. I think Billy Madison had a hand in that aspect.

 

[HariSeldon]

As much as I despise public schools and teacher unions, I lay even more of the blame on the parents. They are the ones who fail their kids at home, and they are the ones who tolerate if not outright praise the dimwit teachers who lower standards so that De'Shawntay can get his football scholarship. If parents invested a shred of effort into their kids, even public education would drastically improve.

Roald Dahl is great. Both my oldest son and oldest daughter have read several of his books.

Don't ever second-guess yourself and wonder "is this a bit early?"

It isn't. Kids are intelligent and they absorb far more than they can verbally express back to you. Believe me, it's sinking in. Always give them reading material several grades above their current "level", within reason. Some people say "oh but that might snuff out their passion for reading" and perhaps that's true for certain books, but they will have to read and parse things they don't want to read all the time in the real world. Like you said: showing up to school without knowing how to feed yourself or use the toilet is absurd, an obvious failure of the parents. Reading is the same way. Might as well train your kid to read "boring" things so they're inoculated against that sort of boredom. The teacher shouldn't be arguing with your kid, pleading with them to pay attention to an assignment.

Absolutely parents are a big part of the problem. Schools teach bad ideology but parents do far worse, sending their kids in thoroughly underprepared for school. I was way ahead on reading before I even started school and that carried through for life pretty much, because my parents, for all that they were fucking idiots with drink and drug problems, managed to do that one thing right. The fact that this shit is happening with well-off families is nuts (the mother in law works in a posh area). It's not just poor kids (though they undoubtedly have it worse - chaotic homes with no quiet spaces to study and families who don't value education).

I loved Roald Dahl as a kid, and used his work in the classroom in Thailand. He really was brilliant, so imaginative and he knew exactly how to capture a kid's attention. Honestly he is one of the all time great kids authors. I'll likely pick up some Harry Potter books too at some point.

I do intend to give my kids the same advantage my parents gave me, and yeah I won't be taking much notice of the level they're meant to be at, rather I'll be bringing books I know are interesting and push them a bit, and see what happens. I love reading a good book, I really do. I can get lost for hours in a good book, it's one of life's great pleasures and I don't want my kids to miss out on it.

 

[bork]

Just say yer it covers both.

 

[lock2k]

I feel like for most of my life, most people just knew what we all learned in 6th grade English class without having to really try or think about it. But we've reached a point where it feels like the vast majority of people who write things on the internet don't even know the absolute basics of English grammar.

I'm not talking about complicated grammar rules here. English is a wonky language and there are plenty of legitimately confusing aspects to it. I'm talking about people who don't know there/their/they're, your/you're, etc. I'm talking people who write "could of" or insane shit like "shouldn't of" which means they know what a contraction is but still think of/have are interchangeable words.

When did this shift happen? Did schools stop grading papers after the year 2005 and just give everyone an A and push them through the system?

I never understood why natives use "could of". I'm not a native and it makes my blood boil. It doesn't make sense.

The "your" instead of "you are" or "you're" also gives me the heebie jeebies.

The same happens in other languages.

You see some over simplification of the dialects so braindead individuals can understand and write them. I see a lot of similar examples in Portuguese ans Spanish as well.

 

[Calcium]

The more reliant we become on technology the dumber we are. Why learn how to spell or use proper grammar when spell check exists?

 

[lock2k]

The more reliant we become on technology the dumber we are. Why learn how to spell or use proper grammar when spell check exists?

I agree that it happens.

But even spell checker can be used in a way to make you write better. I regularly use it to confirm the way certain words are written and I incorporate the knowledge in my vocabulary.

 

[Ferdinand the Cowfish]

I still do this from time to time, but I hate it when people use "a lot" to describe quantity. I had an English and public speaking teacher in high school who would take points off of any assignment where you used that phrase.

It's probably a southern thing but I also hate it when people butcher "may as well" when speaking. "Maas well" is like nails down a chalkboard to me.

I'll also admit to sometimes confusing its and it's when typing. Not because I don't know the difference, but because I'm a fast typer and my fingers want to automatically add the apostrophe between the "T" and the "S"

 

[Grinchy]

The more reliant we become on technology the dumber we are. Why learn how to spell or use proper grammar when spell check exists?

If a spell checker could actually correct these problems, they wouldn't be everywhere. But the your/you're and there/they're/their is so contextual it would be difficult to program.

The "could of" bullshit could stop almost overnight. Every site could make it so every single time a user tries to submit a post with "could of / might of /should of" and all the rest of those, it pops up with a message saying they can't submit it until they change the word "of" to "have." It's an easy thing to implement because there's not a single instance when "of" correctly replaces "have."

It would train the entire world immediately. Imagine twitter and facebook doing that. Hundreds of millions of English speakers would learn in an instant what they weren't able to grasp at 12 years old.

 

[Nicktendo]

I'm bothered by people not knowing the difference between lose and loose. Also canon and cannon.

We got a lose canon over here!

 

[Grinchy]

Another slightly annoying one is its vs it's, but you can't fault people for that one at all. English is so wonky that the possessive form of everything else uses an apostrophe with an s at the end, but then there's the weird case of its and it's.

That is Jake's car. That is its tail. Fucking English...go home, you're drunk. But I still can't help but read "it is" every time someone says it's and so it stings every time. And that's a mistake I see made even on "professional journalist" sites.

 

[and 3 others]

Another slightly annoying one is its vs it's, but you can't fault people for that one at all. English is so wonky that the possessive form of everything else uses an apostrophe with an s at the end, but then there's the weird case of its and it's.

That is Jake's car. That is its tail. Fucking English...go home, you're drunk. But I still can't help but read "it is" every time someone says it's and so it stings every time. And that's a mistake I see made even on "professional journalist" sites.

It's a contraction though of "it and is".

 

[Grinchy]

It's a contraction though of "it and is".

Jake's is also a contraction of "Jake and is." I can say, "Jake's going to the bathroom" and you'd know I was saying "Jake is going to the bathroom." But it can also be used to denote that something is possessed by Jake.

Yet when the subject is "it," suddenly the rule has to change? I can see why people would fuck that one up all the time as it's a shitty rule, but I can't stand reading it lol

 

[and 3 others]

Jake's is also a contraction of "Jake and is." I can say "Jake's going to the bathroom" and you'd know I was saying "Jake is going to the bathroom." But it can also be used to denote that something is possessed by Jake.

Yet when the subject is "it," suddenly the rule has to change? I can see why people would fuck that one up all the time as it's a shitty rule, but I can't stand reading it lol

Fuck it. Jake's'
Problem solved.

 

[HariSeldon]

English has issues no doubt but Swedish is doing my head in right now. The random use of en or ett for the English a/an is incredibly irritating. Then there's de (they) pronounced dom - total pain in the arse. And the letter k is a complete shambles in Swedish. Sk makes some fucking random sound that doesn't make any sense. Skoldpadda (turtle) sounds more like foo-ell-padda. Fucking nightmare.

 

[DonDonDonPata]

Midwest has the best contractions, if we're bragging.

D'jeet? Shouldn't've skipped dinner.

 

[Neil Young]

I've had numerous bosses not know the difference. "Could you send you're report?". Oh fuck you lol! That drives me crazy to this day. It's like, how did your illiterate ass get your position?

 

[lock2k]

I've had numerous bosses not know the difference. "Could you send you're report?". Oh fuck you lol! That drives me crazy to this day. It's like, how did your illiterate ass get your position?

 

[Soodanim]

Absolutely. An interesting thing btw - wife's mother is a primary school teacher. Kids are arriving for first year lacking basic skills due to parents parking their kids in front of a screen. It's a mess. Basic skills like toileting, feeding, etc, are missing that weren't 10 years ago. It's an absolute shocker. But yeah reading for pleasure makes a huge difference and I credit that in a big way for my breaking out of my frankly very dodgy roots.

I've got a kid on the way and I've started picking up books for him/her already, all the classics esp the wonderful Roald Dahl. Bit early I know but I know that reading with my kids is going to be enormous fun and enormously worthwhile. It's one of the biiiiiig things I'm intent on working hard on.

Oh and one more thing. Phonics is absolute horseshit. It does NOTHING good.

My friend's an LSA and I hear the same things about kids who can't do basic human stuff by the time they hit school. It's awful to think how badly these parents are failing their children.

THANK YOU for mentioning phonics. Fucking digraphs and trigraphs. I was reading at the level of a 13+ year old at age 7, and I never heard of a digraph until I was told about the modern teaching methods in the last few years (I'm in my 30s). It sounds like change for the sake of change, and I seriously doubt the efficacy of it.

Jake's is also a contraction of "Jake and is." I can say, "Jake's going to the bathroom" and you'd know I was saying "Jake is going to the bathroom." But it can also be used to denote that something is possessed by Jake.

Yet when the subject is "it," suddenly the rule has to change? I can see why people would fuck that one up all the time as it's a shitty rule, but I can't stand reading it lol

Its is the neutral form of his, that's all, no rule changes there.
"It's his birthday"
"It's its birthday"

 

[WesternBlood]

Public Schools.

In the United States at least.

 

[DESTROYA]

Guilty!
As a non native speaker I mess up the English language up all the time and yes I'm admittedly a little bit retarded ( OK maybe a very retarded )

 

[Grinchy]

Guilty!
As a non native speaker I mess up the English language up all the time and yes I'm admittedly a little bit retarded ( OK maybe a very retarded )

No way dude, someone speaking English as a second language gets a pass. Clearly that is a very good reason to not have dumb grammar rules down.

But as someone who had to learn more than one language, imagine kids in the US only having to learn the language they speak and they still can't get the basics down. It's pretty bad.

 

[The Bloody Nine]

For all intensive purposes, it's a problem.

 

[Still can't decide]

Another that I often hear people using incorrectly is laying down/lying down, though the one that has me eye rolling is "I could care less".
After acknowledging the increasing lack of education standards, I imagine "could of/should of" also likely happen because they sound so similar to could've/should've. We shorten words while we're casually talking as it's easier, flows and reduces time, so perhaps there's a link there.

I personally think I'm terrible with sentence structure because of two reasons. For one, I'm lazy and skip words you don't necessarily need while maintaining something readable. Secondly, I'm always thinking of multiple ways to try and express even a simple point, can't ever make my mind up which method I want to use and end up with a this mish-mash.

 

[SirKicksalot]

Lack of reading during childhood development. Seriously. Learning the nuances of a language in class is so boring. Kids are only gonna pick up a percentage of those lessons, no matter how hard you cram it into their ears.

However, if you set aside time for them to read -- as well as read books to them yourself and also actually read things for yourself so they witness your example -- they will excel because they will be reading all kinds of word-configurations and complexities that the avg language teacher will never ever touch on because everything is taught to the lowest common denominator.

Reading is very important for all languages at any age.
If you ever catch yourself being retarded and losing your grasp on grammar and semantics, even reading a single non-fiction book by a talented writer does wonders to revert your stupidity. Avoid illustrated books (such as the illustrated history of WW1 or an atlas), they tend to condense information into something efficient but not at all stimulating. I would recommend memoirs or compilations of bite-sized studies from the same author, like Asimov, whose informal style is very fun to read.