[Dacon]

It's a long ass video, but it's worth watch for the breakdown.

Whether you win or lose, you have no real agency in the outcome of your game. Sometimes you don't even control how you're aiming.

The algorithm is always active, even during gameplay. Everything you do is controller to get the outcome they want, to get you hooked, to keep you in their
ecosystem to pay for their slop. It's a fucking nightmare out here.

It'll only get worse the further into the future we get out here.

 

[regawdless]

Yeah it's super fucked up and manipulative. Like, the shit I've read about.... you buy or unlock a new shiny Shotgun, algo will give you a few smaller maps and players that match up well for you to feel awesome. To validate your purchase and make you feel good about it. To then slowly decrease your success, making you feel like you need more unlocks or purchases.

The crazy thing is, it's fun for people. They're manipulated but having a great time doing it. So, is it really that bad? I absolutely hate it, but evidently most don't mind.

 

[Dacon]

Yeah it's super fucked up and manipulative. Like, the shit I've read about.... you buy or unlock a new shiny Shotgun, algo will give you a few smaller maps and players that match up well for you to feel awesome. To validate your purchase and make you feel good about it. To then slowly decrease your success, making you feel like you need more unlocks or purchases.

Sometimes it'll even give you a slight damage boost or aim assist.

The crazy thing is, it's fun for people. They're manipulated but having a great time doing it. So, is it really that bad? I absolutely hate it, but evidently most don't mind.

It's killing PVP games for me. I really enjoy Marvel Rivals, and Overwatch to a lesser extent but the algos make them a fucking nightmare to play for any extended period of time.

 

[hans gruber]

I miss the old free for all matchmaking system. If you were new you accepted you'd probably go 1-20 in a shooter or lose your first 15 matches in a fighting game. I remember running into pros in a few games, usually getting my shit pushed in, but still getting to test myself against the absolute best which is not really possible anymore. People think because they downloaded a game they're entitled to a 50% win rate from the get-go.

 

[Zeta Dragoon]

Multiplayer and some single players games should always have optional LAN and Co-Op setups.

Internet connections should be optional.

Also not rigging games like described in the topic, damn.

 

[DonDonDonPata]

Bring back player lobbies and LAN. Matchmaking was always always always aimed at smoothing out the casual experience for the least-engaged users. Let the sweaties play in their lobbies how they want and let the casuals click the matchmaking button to get matched with other casuals.

 

[Amorous Biscuit]

Fascinating video, I've almost finished it and the psychological manipulation is what sickens me most. To some degree, a lot of people knew about the dirty tricks that CoD pulls to further engage players and keep them hooked, but the systems built to specifically reward marquee players is astounding. Not to mention all the issues with stuff like hit reg which the more conspiratorial will take as a sign of Skill Based Damage.

I don't know why anyone bothers with games like Overwatch and Rivals when the algorithm is so clearly known and defined and tries to keep everyone at that 50% WR. How does someone excel in an environment designed to punish you like that? What is even the point given you're likely going to reach a theoretical maximum skill and then just be hardstuck thanks to the matchmaking with little to no room to improve when you're coming up against similarly skilled players all the time. Also, NetEase punishing people for leaving bot matches is some wild shit lol

Just horrible, dirty tricks to keep people hooked and spend. I wish Call of Duty would just split its base into ranked and casual modes where there's little to none of these psychological sleights present in casual and ranked more closely adhering to more clear SBMM.

 

[regawdless]

Sometimes it'll even give you a slight damage boost or aim assist.



It's killing PVP games for me. I really enjoy Marvel Rivals, and Overwatch to a lesser extent but the algos make them a fucking nightmare to play for any extended period of time.

To be totally fair though, it's not like a lot of single player games are any different generally speaking. Looter shooters, progression, leveling, upgrades etc. They're designed in the same way using psychology to hook you. Constant rewards etc. so it's interesting to what extent it's valid game design and when does it become manipulation.

For me personally, when a game does it to extract as much money out of me as possible. Which some sp games do but online games to a larger degree.

 

[Polden]

I first started noticing this in Battlefield 1. The tactics DICE used to keep games close at all times were dirty. If a team got too much in the lead, the game's mechanics worked against them.
1. Elite classes spawn more frequently for losing teams
2. Behemoth system was a team savior.
3. Spawn rate increases for losing team

Add all this up and now 90% of matches are dead even and the winner is decided by the actions of players in last 90 seconds, making the entire match worthless. There was no point in trying because the game was going to make sure both teams were even in the end. That was in 2016 and I've hardly engage in modern games since but I imagine its insanely worst.

I did play Modern Warfare (2019) for a bit and the SBMM was depressing. The next match after winning two games in a row felt like a humiliation ritual.

 

[HE1NZ]

Overwatch doesn't have any of that shit except skill based matchmaking.

 

[Polden]

Yeah it's super fucked up and manipulative. Like, the shit I've read about.... you buy or unlock a new shiny Shotgun, algo will give you a few smaller maps and players that match up well for you to feel awesome. To validate your purchase and make you feel good about it. To then slowly decrease your success, making you feel like you need more unlocks or purchases.

The crazy thing is, it's fun for people. They're manipulated but having a great time doing it. So, is it really that bad? I absolutely hate it, but evidently most don't mind.

The systems are already set in place for these games. It would be very simple to have a function saying if a user spends credits, set their SBMM to half their rank for 3 matches and then back to normal.

So even if its a skin purchase, they're reinforcing that purchase with dopamine wins.

 

[Dacon]

Overwatch doesn't have any of that shit except skill based matchmaking.

You obviously didn't watch the video. There's plenty of other videos, and analysts who have covered this.

Overwatch enforces a 50% winrate too.

 

[HE1NZ]

You obviously didn't watch the video. There's plenty of other videos, and analysts who have covered this.

Overwatch enforces a 50% winrate too.

The video is 3 hours long.

Overwatch doesn't have bots or aim assists or other advantages to force winrate. They do it through matchmaking. 50% winrate is not bad. It's what you should realistically get.

 

[Polden]

The video is 3 hours long.

Overwatch doesn't have bots or aim assists or other advantages to force winrate. They do it through matchmaking. 50% winrate is not bad. It's what you should realistically get.

If it's what we should get then why would they make a system to make sure that happens?

 

[Miyazaki Loves Kojima]

Overwatch doesn't have any of that shit except skill based matchmaking.

 

[HE1NZ]

If it's what we should get then why would they make a system to make sure that happens?

The system is called skill based matchmaking. If you get better at the game you get matched with better players and your winrate stays the same.

Sure they do all kinds of shady stuff in the background to keep whales playing in other games but I don't think it affects Overwatch.

 

[Dacon]

The video is 3 hours long.

If you had watched even just the Overwatch portion of the video you'd know you're wrong.

It's an activision game dependent on selling skins ffs.

Overwatch doesn't have bots or aim assists or other advantages to force winrate. They do it through matchmaking. 50% winrate is not bad. It's what you should realistically get.

Overwatch DOES have aim assists that can randomly trigger. People have been discussing this since 2022, and some of the best players in the game have noticed it.

No one should just get a 50% winrate just for playing. If the matchmaking is manipulating the game for you to achieve this, it's not really your skill helping you climb. That's EOMM.

 

[Amorous Biscuit]

The system is called skill based matchmaking. If you get better at the game you get matched with better players and your winrate stays the same.

Sure they do all kinds of shady stuff in the background to keep whales playing in other games but I don't think it affects Overwatch.

Why should players who perform well and win matches be penalised by being matched with worse players who don't adhere to team composition or strategy just because the devs decided that 50% WR is where they want everyone to be? It's a lousy system that doesn't actually push anyone to get better at the game because you know you're only one or two wins away from being dicked by something completely out of your hands.

 

[HE1NZ]

For a second I forgot that D-Pad is a conspiracy central. Please continue. Yes, every time you lose it's the system being stacked against you, not you being shit.

 

[Polden]

For a second I forgot that D-Pad is a conspiracy central. Please continue. Yes, every time you lose it's the system being stacked against you, not you being shit.

do your knees hurt from bending down to every system put in front of you?

 

[Dacon]

For a second I forgot that D-Pad is a conspiracy central. Please continue. Yes, every time you lose it's the system being stacked against you, not you being shit.

It's not a "conspiracy" when you already know the truth. We know for a fact these companies use these systems.
Thousands of people have noticed this shit. We have data and studies on it. You have no argument so you just come in here making dumb accusations about conspiracies.

No one said individual skill has no part in it, but there is something very unnatural about predictable win streaks and subsequent loss streaks.

 

[Amorous Biscuit]

For a second I forgot that D-Pad is a conspiracy central. Please continue. Yes, every time you lose it's the system being stacked against you, not you being shit.

Where is the conspiracy?

 

[HE1NZ]

Where is the conspiracy?

You're saying that once you get better at the game you get worse teammates to put you down.

In reality, at least in Overwatch, you get stronger opponents. You'll be matched people of your skill level and will lose as frequent as you win. 50% winrate is a desired outcome. If you get higher winrate then you constantly get weak opponents.

I have more than 2k hours in Overwatch. People who blame teammates there are always the ones who underperform.

 

[Amorous Biscuit]

You're saying that once you get better at the game you get worse teammates to put you down.

In reality, at least in Overwatch, you get stronger opponents. You'll be matched people of your skill level and will lose as frequent as you win. 50% winrate is a desired outcome. If you get higher winrate then you constantly get weak opponents.

I have more than 2k hours in Overwatch. People who blame teammates there are always the ones who underperform.

Yes, it's literally a system of the SBMM/EOMM to keep people hooked

 

[Dacon]

You're saying that once you get better at the game you get worse teammates to put you down.

No, it doesn't matter your skill level. If you're doing really good in matches the game will match you with lower skill players against better teams to even out your winrate. If you're losing too much, you'll get matched with really good players, sometimes well out of your skill level to carry you back to a more even winrate. Your personal skill doesn't matter.
You don't even need to trust me on this, go and watch any good high rank Overwatch/Rivals player stream for a good 4-8 hours and you'll see all of the same trends.

In reality, at least in Overwatch, you get stronger opponents. You'll be matched people of your skill level and will lose as frequent as you win.

Completely untrue. I've had grandmaster games with diamond players in them. The matchmaking is just trying to balance things out.

50% winrate is a desired outcome.

Nah. No algorithmic manipulation is ideal. The ranks should sort themselves out.

If you get higher winrate then you constantly get weak opponents.

Or your team is just that good. There's tons of different factors that youre dismissing here.

I have more than 2k hours in Overwatch. People who blame teammates there are always the ones who underperform.

Uh huh, because good players NEVER get matched with bad teammates. There's one thing when you're on a decently balanced team, and there's that one guy blaming everyone else, it's another when the entire team is bad, and getting stomped.
No one person can carry an entire team in a match against people who know the game. You can be an amazing player with the best k/d in the game and still lose. It's just not a thing even for the best of players. Anyone who isn't an idiot or doesn't have main character syndrome knows this. It's a fucking T-E-A-M game ffs.

Oh I have over 7 years of experience playing this game btw, not that it fucking matters.

 

[regawdless]

For a second I forgot that D-Pad is a conspiracy central. Please continue. Yes, every time you lose it's the system being stacked against you, not you being shit.

As so often recently. Having a strong opinion, passive aggressive post like being on a period, without even watching the video or doing the minimum amount of research, omg the conspiracy.

My face is tired.

 

[HE1NZ]

As so often recently. Having a strong opinion, passive aggressive post like being on a period, without even watching the video or doing the minimum amount of research, omg the conspiracy.

My face is tired.

Make a tweet about it.

 

[BlackDow]

quake and quake 2 MP laughs at them

Games are legit fun still timeless classics. Yeah I get my ass kicked. At least I know it's my fault because I suck, no because t have the latest perks or dare I admit left it a while so I slip behind.
So back then it was more about the fun game not lets wring this suckers dry.

 

[regawdless]

Make a tweet about it.

Exactly the brain dead answer I expected.

Your behavior has been like this, more often than not:

Coming into threads, posting shallow baseless shit that's often attacking the community, getting called out but not being able to answer with anything of substance, vanishing.

I like to hear a wide range of opinions and different perspectives, but you don't seem to want to have honest conversations, just stupid disingenuous contrarian bait posts. I'd love to see that changing, I believe there's a normal person somewhere behind that schtick.

 

[HE1NZ]

Exactly the brain dead answer I expected.

Your behavior has been like this, more often than not:

Coming into threads, posting shallow baseless shit that's often attacking the community, getting called out but not being able to answer with anything of substance, vanishing.

I like to hear a wide range of opinions and different perspectives, but you don't seem to want to have honest conversations, just stupid disingenuous contrarian bait posts. I'd love to see that changing, I believe there's a normal person somewhere behind that schtick.

You ran out of things to complain, Karen? It must bother you a lot that I don't take your shitty bait in AC Shadows thread. After all you went into this completely random discussion to unload the dumb shit you piled up.

Somebody please give regardless the attention he craves and updoots.

 

[regawdless]

You ran out of things to complain, Karen? It must bother you a lot that I don't take your shitty bait in AC Shadows thread. After all you went into this completely random discussion to unload the dumb shit you piled up.

Somebody please give regardless the attention he craves and updoots.

That's an interesting interpretation of the situation. I actually just want to have a cool community without shallow rage bait gay shit and disingenuous takes.

For me, it looks like you're actually the one begging for attention by doing your contrarian shit. It's funny how that works, the same as with the woke BS.

- Devs push woke BS
- We call it out because we don't like it
- HE1NZ: omg you're attention seeking grifters

- HE1NZ keeps doing bait shit attacking the community
- I call it out because I don't like it
- HE1NZ: omg you're attention seeking

The same flawed logic every single time. Impressive.

 

[HE1NZ]

That's an interesting interpretation of the situation. I actually just want to have a cool community without shallow rage bait gay shit and disingenuous takes.

For me, it looks like you're actually the one begging for attention by doing your contrarian shit. It's funny how that works, the same as with the woke BS.

- Devs push woke BS
- We call it out because we don't like it
- HE1NZ: omg you're attention seeking grifters

- HE1NZ keeps doing bait shit attacking the community
- I call it out because I don't like it
- HE1NZ: omg you're attention seeking

The same flawed logic every single time. Impressive.

There I give you updoot. Too bad it's not Reddit.

It's good that you're able to comprehend other interpretations of the situtation. One day you'll see "contrarian shit" as part of the "wide range of opinions and different perspectives".

 

[regawdless]

There I give you updoot. Too bad it's not Reddit.

It's good that you're able to comprehend other interpretations of the situtation. One day you'll see "contrarian shit" as part of the "wide range of opinions and different perspectives".

It would help me a lot if you would voice that opinion in a neutral way, you know. With a focus on the actual contents of the argument, something that makes logical sense instead of lazy drive by low effort passive aggressive menstruation posts.

Like basically every other person here. Would be awesome.

 

[HE1NZ]

It would help me a lot if you would voice that opinion in a neutral way, you know. With a focus on the actual contents of the argument, something that makes logical sense instead of lazy drive by low effort passive aggressive menstruation posts.

Like basically every other person here. Would be awesome.

Is your reply an example of a neutral way?

 

[regawdless]

Is your reply an example of a neutral way?

Not totally, no, but for the most part. At least I'm making a logical argument. I was very neutral for some time when you started with your schtick and would immediately return to that when you abandon that. I don't come into threads attacking the community, I react to you doing that.

Btw. it's amusing how you claim that half of our feeds are Russian propaganda (which might or might not be true) but the idea of gaming companies manipulating online gameplay is a conspiracy despite there being actual evidence in the video.

Either way, I'd appreciate if you would stop with that unnecessary hostile attitude towards the site and the community. Tell us what you think, why you think differently, I'm honestly interested in your takes. Not with that bait attitude though, it just sucks.

 

[HeresJohnny]

That's an interesting interpretation of the situation. I actually just want to have a cool community without shallow rage bait gay shit and disingenuous takes.

For me, it looks like you're actually the one begging for attention by doing your contrarian shit. It's funny how that works, the same as with the woke BS.

- Devs push woke BS
- We call it out because we don't like it
- HE1NZ: omg you're attention seeking grifters

- HE1NZ keeps doing bait shit attacking the community
- I call it out because I don't like it
- HE1NZ: omg you're attention seeking

The same flawed logic every single time. Impressive.

Stahp grifting!

 

[LtGoose]

I honestly don't need a video to tell me this. I've been playing FPS/shooter games all my life and have witnessed this nonsense. It really turns me off from the genre now.

But I still play Overwatch 2 occasionally. God I miss Battlefield 3.......

 

[Amorous Biscuit]

I honestly don't need a video to tell me this. I've been playing FPS/shooter games all my life and have witnessed this nonsense. It really turns me off from the genre now.

But I still play Overwatch 2 occasionally. God I miss Battlefield 3.......

It had never been made more obvious than in Modern Warfare 2019. It's probably my favourite CoD game but you knew you were one or two wins away from getting absolutely bodied by the sweatiest most vile players that the game has to offer. It actively prevented you from wanting to win because it meant you might get a lobby that you enjoy more than one which was just peak frustration. It also encouraged a more ratty style of play where you're not focused on playing objectives, but just camping corners and praying for dear life.