I won't be stinking up the OT. For the record. We can keep this shit in here.
Thread: Kingdom Come: Deliverance II Official Game Reveal & Off Topic
Hype Thread
I've been purposely avoiding stuff about the game because I can't wait to go in blind, but my knee-jerk reaction is definitely that it's odd that they're suddenly adding in a gay option. In the climate we're used to for years leading up to today, there's only one conclusion to draw from that and that's that the company was pressured into adding that nonsense.
But like I say, I purposely have been staying as blind as possible, so maybe there was no pressure and it's not the money people forcing their will onto the creatives like the other 99% of the game industry. Maybe I play the game and end up saying "wtf were people complaining about here."
I wouldn't even have given a shit if Vavra hadn't portrayed himself as Mr Based, when the first one was in development. Telling all the danger haired mutants to go fuck themselves.
It's just very disappointing, but probably out of his hands. Which is why he keeps losing his rag on social media.
That's what bugs me about it too tbh. When the guy at the top was very vocal about not compromising his vision and using real history and all that stuff, fuck you purplehairs, etc, on the surface it feels very odd that there's suddenly a gay option. I think the fact that there are black characters now is actually explained by real history? I don't know, because again I have purposely kept as ignorant as possible.
So I guess I'm hoping for the best, but I wouldn't want to see people stop bitching if there is genuinely something to bitch about. Either way, it feels very woke-lite if there was any element of this stuff being forced. Henry can't be trans or some shit lol. There won't be a 5 minute cutscene on misgendering.
Zefah if you're all about boycotting it over this just commit fully, no half-measures of 'I'll pick it up down the line' 'When it's on deep discount' or 'I'll pirate it' (If you are prepared to play it you should be prepared to pay for it).
I'm not opposed to boycotts. I'm never playing Dragon Age: Veilguard or AC Shadows for instance, because based on what has been said and seen those are irredeemable DEI trash and just don't appeal to me on any level as gameplay experiences I want to put my limited time into. However, with BG3 I almost went down the boycott route because people online were REEing about the Bear and honestly I'm glad I didn't because that game was great, despite the odd woke concession here and there. Gay Gnomes? Ok whatever, let's get back to finding a cure for these perky brain worms and working on romancing Karlach.
Do I think KCD II is going to be DEI-infested trash? No, not remotely. I've watched a lot of video commentary from innumerable people who are presently playing the game and pretty much all of them are loving it, and in love with it. The consensus is it builds on the strong foundations of KCD and improves the formula in terms of gameplay, performance, choice & consequence and overall quality of life and has some real GoTY contender vibes to it.
Do I think including an optional gay romance, and some dude from the Empire of Mali in KCD II are bad choice on the Dev's part? Devoid of full context, sure, but at the same time, I don't know how much pressure they were under to include those things from their Publishers. From what I understand the optional gay romance scene you have to go down the rabbit hole to trigger and it is pretty tame by all accounts (unlike the female romances which are more in line with KCD I). Meanwhile, the Trader from Mali ended up in Kuttenberg as part of Sigismund's foreign mercenary army and he's largely treated as an oddity by the locals by all accounts which makes absolute sense.
If someone's of the mindset that even the whiff of potential DEI = no sale, then go for it, but if it's simply a timed protest then ultimately the biggest victim isn't the developer (the games going to sell a bucketload of copies by all accounts) it's yourself for missing out on that zeitgeist period when everyone is experiencing the game firsthand and learning it together.
I operate from a 'How much is this truly going to bother me' mindset with any of these things. An option I'm never going to undertake plus a single foreign NPC in a game this vast, hardly seems worthwhile getting irate about IMHO, least of all to the extent I'm going to wholesale eschew playing as Henry once again and missing out on hanging out with Hans and getting into all sorts of Medieval chicanery in the process.
I remember a lot of people here all going mad for snapping up copies of Hogwarts Legacy as a 'Fuck you' to Game Journos and ResetEra, but all turning a blind eye to the fact that despite the 'Woke' Mob being dead set against it Portkey Games still filled that game full of DEI pleasing Woke concessions, from an absurdly multi-cultural cast for a game supposedly set in England in 1890 through to an openly trans character running the wand shop. Yet where was the boycott over that? For the record, I never bought it, but mainly because I'm just not that into Harry Potter at the end of the day.
KCD was and still is awesome. A lot of people on the left wanted that game to fail because they negatively associated Vavra with Gamergate. Famously Waypoint (RIP) refused to review it and a fair few outlets like Eurogamer and RPS wrote some pretty histrionic articles about it at the time hoping that doing so would be the kiss of death to both it and Warhorse Studios. Yet despite all of that the game went on to sell 8 million copies because for all the furore, people downright enjoyed the game, even with its steep learning curve and unforgiving mechanics.
I find it honestly astounding that I see some people now turning on Warhorse over a couple of inclusions that don't amount to a hill of beans at the end of the day against the goodwill they've earned over the years. Still, if some people want to go on a boycott Jihad about it that's their prerogative, just don't gum up the OT when it goes up for the game is all I ask.
Also if you're not pumped to the tits for KCD II based on this trailer honestly there's no helping any of you.
Of course the preview footage has me hyped. I was super excited for the game based on my experience with the first one and the preview footage until all of this stuff. I even had it pre-ordered.
I'm not going to "boycott" it or anything (hell, I'd probably even try Dragon Age for a couple of hours if it landed on Game Pass). Right now it's still all smoke and rumors, although seemingly credible. It won't be until the game is out for a bit and lots of people have played it that the truth of the matter will become clear.
Even if things are as described, the rest of the game may be good enough to make it a must-play. I just won't be picking it up on day one or at full price like I otherwise would have had none of this happened in the first place.
But yeah, I don't plan to "gum up the OT." I highly doubt it will be a Dragon Age situation where every day new footage of ridiculous cutscenes are being revealed. Hopefully, there just won't be much to ridicule at all other than what's already been mentioned.
Been seeing some of his posts dug up by people in recent days in which he expresses deeply anti-Christian (even hostile) sentiment. Combined with his changing his tune on quite a few things since the release of the first game, I'm guessing his beliefs and convictions either changed over the last 8 years for one reason or another, or that he maybe had subversive intentions this whole time. Honestly having a hard time understanding what his intentions are at this point considering the numerous contradictions.
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Phunkydiabetic
Prince of the Land of Stench
Not gonna lie, I could give a shit about his religious beliefs or his opinions. To be honest, I'd much prefer these developers just shut the fuck up and make games in isolation like they used to back in the day. Nameless nerds toiling away in some dimly lit room, much better than hearing some devs opinions on trannies or whatever.
The only people claiming KCD was a "Christian" game are the same professional online outrage grifters trying to convince you not to buy the sequel. People might be all Jesus Christ be praised in Kingdom Come but the actual number of earnest Christian characters are pretty few and far between, and hardly any of the principal ones. I don't know anyone who played the first game as some Goodlie two-shoes Dudley Do right. Less than 0.7% of the total player base on Steam managed to earn the Merciful achievement (the most Christian way to play) wherein you don't kill any character in the entire playthrough save Runt, and most people looking to do that are achievement hunters because it's extremely hard to pull off successfully. Sure as Henry you can try and act righteous, but the reality is you're rarely allowed to play holier than thou. There is a great scene early in the game wherein upon your return to Skalitz you get the opportunity to admonish Zbyshek for attempting to loot the butcher's corpse and he rightly turns around and points the very same finger at you, because after all you've been doing the same thing as him.
This mealy-mouth prosecution of Vavra now (a guy whose first language isn't English) seems no different than the same sort of BS that was going on back when KCD was first announced and he came under fire from the REEs for not subscribing to their narratives on Gamergate.
This mealy-mouth prosecution of Vavra now (a guy whose first language isn't English) seems no different than the same sort of BS that was going on back when KCD was first announced and he came under fire from the REEs for not subscribing to their narratives on Gamergate.
Phunkydiabetic
Prince of the Land of Stench
I don't think I have it in me to do a playthrough without violence. In fact, I plan on being the biggest scumbag 15th century Bohemia has ever known. The people of Bohemia will know my name, they will weep within my presence. I shall slaughter as many villagers as possible. And their livestock.
You say mealy-mouthed, but I think that's a very inaccurate description. The REEs hated him the first time because he was sincere and uncompromising.
He's getting flack this time from people like me because he now seems insincere and compromising, or even worse, subversive.
Yes, almost all Christians are also sinners (as in its original meaning of "missing the mark"), in desperate need of salvation. It's not about being a "goodie two-shoes" and lording your moral superiority over others. Very few become saints in this life. The point is that you're always striving to do better even if you frequently fail.
Phunkydiabetic
Prince of the Land of Stench
The first game accounted for such choices. Importantly, however, you couldn't make Henry not a Christian.
He made his own bed. Historically accurate, "Henry is not gay" (their own words), etc, etc. Now all of a sudden Henry can be gay if you like. There are now black people in Bohemia (there weren't in the first game because we're keeping things historically accurate). He sold out and people are pointing it out.
John Matrix
Member
- Platforms
Vavra literally said the other day that he knows tons of men that suddenly turned gay when they were older, leaving their wives and kids behind. That was his reasoning for turning Henry gay, that people can change their sexuality when older.
One thing I'll say is that just like you and others I promise not to post on the OT without playing the game. Let the people that want to play the game enjoy it.
I do disagree with Kadai that playing the game at lunch is the best way to experience it. I didn't played Cyberpunk 2077 for over two years until they fixed everything. I also waited over a year to play BG3. I rarely replay long games so I rather wait for all the expansions and DLC to come out before diving in. I'll just stay away from the OT and YouTube videos so I don't get spoiled.
Yeah, day one Cyberpunk wasn't a great experience.
It wasn't THAT bad on my PC, but apparently the console versions were basically unplayable.
Yeah, day one Cyberpunk wasn't a great experience.
It wasn't THAT bad on my PC, but apparently the console versions were basically unplayable.
Yeah, the console versions were a disaster. I absolutely loved Cyberpunk at launch, but I also had just upgraded to a new PC with a 3080.
I had a 3070 at that point and it handled it fine, with ray tracing turned off. I briefly turned it on and lost 80fps.
Phunkydiabetic
Prince of the Land of Stench
I would have a VERY different opinion on Cyberpunk if I had played at launch, on a ps4, as opposed to years later fixed up on a ps5.
Same.
I think as long as you don't mind missing the early hype, it's best to play "big" single player games at least 1 year after launch. Pretty much every modern game gets tweaks and content-enhancements within those first 12 months. In several cases, it's a significant overhaul (like 2077 or like Atlas Fallen). Usually I'll just wait until the first DLC is out and buy it together with the game.
Neil Young
Heart of Gold
- Platforms
And you will KNOW my name is.....Henry, when I lay my vengeance upon you!!
Yeah, day one Cyberpunk wasn't a great experience.
It wasn't THAT bad on my PC, but apparently the console versions were basically unplayable.
I had only very few issues on PC at launch. Apparently, if you had a strong system, it was less buggy than on weak ones. It was so weird.
I don't see you talking Zef, I just see you spouting other people's talking points verbatim and unquestionably.
How about this as a thought exercise, you prove unequivocally that KCD is in fact a "Christian" game (whatever the actually means), versus a historical RPG that happens to be set in medieval Bohemia, and outline your step-by-step criteria for arriving at that conclusion. No videos, no YouTube links, no passing off other people's words as your own (because I'll know). Make your case for.
As I said earlier in the thread, do these inclusions concern me to some extent? Sure, but as the former is entirely optional I honestly don't care all that much as that's not a dialogue tree I'll personally be going down ( I remember with ME:3 they decided to turn Kaidan Alenko from a straight character into one who went both ways and albeit I thought it was an odd choice I equally wasn't fused about it).
As for the latter, IIRC the whole issue with KCD was US Numbnuts and professional baldie Arthur Gies REE'd on Twitter at Vavra about a lack of clear racial diversity in the game because he couldn't wrap his fragile head around the idea that some small backwater towns and villages in 16 km2 of medieval landlocked rural Bohemia wouldn't be as diverse as a walk through modern day NYC, and Vavra smacked back at him for being blatantly stupid in that regard. Where are they now? Vavra is still making AAA games heading up Warhorse Studios and Arthur Gies left Game Journalism in high dudgeon, failed to become a painter and then managed to inveigle himself with the NYT to cover Hardware at The Wirecutter.
Still maybe for a more nuanced view of Vavra how about a near hour long video of him talking at length about designing a Historical RPG from way back in 2018:
Well worth a watch just to genuinely hear about how the idea of the game first came about and the legwork that went into it in terms of the research and intent. TD : DW, the guy was really into knights and castles and wanted to make a game about that.
Truth is, KCD was diverse, just not in the clear racial manner that the likes of the Gies of the world wanted. You had Czechs, Germans, Hungarians and Cumans throughout. Does it bother me that KCD II has a guy who heralds from the Empire of Mali in it? Sure it raises an eyebrow, but from what I understand contextually it is explained. Kuttenberg was a central hub for the regional Silver Trade at the time and a key target for Sigismund and his army of foreign mercenaries.
Again though, does it bother me that much about these two minor issues? Not enough to sit on the sidelines in silent protest when the game releases. There are a whole host of upcoming games that I won't be touching with a bargepole, that are far more egregious by any metric.
Story catch-up for KCD for anyone who wants to know what happens in the original game. Just covers the main quest line.
Nah, I'm just giving my genuine reactions to these developments. I think you will see that I was quite excited for the game before this news broke.
I wouldn't call it a "Christian game," since I interpret that to mean a game that's focus is to spread the message of Christianity or encourage people to convert and that's clearly not what KCD was about. I think "historical RPG" makes perfect sense. It's just that the time and place in history was *very* Christian. The first game portrayed it all quite well, in my opinion. Another great example of a game that isn't a "Christian game" but is very Christian in setting would be Pentiment (awesome game, btw). I just took issue with your characterization of what makes a person an "earnest Christian."
Saruhashi
Member
As others have said, I would also not be willing to bring this stuff into the OT for the game.
Without more details about the situation the game is a "wait and see" for now.
My feeling, based on the attitude of the developers at the launch of the first game, is that the publisher has come along and said "listen guys the game needs to have some LGBTQ content and you must have some racial diversity in there too" and those are non-negotiables from the publisher.
The game is already bought and paid for as far as development is concerned. The budget is spent. Devs have been paid etc. So revenues from sales of the game will be going to the publishers. Not sure how willing I would be to pay for this knowing they've got their agenda wedged in there.
I definitely get the dismissal of its just one scene or one character or one dialogue choice in a huge game. I get that it's hardly the end of the world.
Still doesn't feel right though. Feels like an absolute win for the wrong side of this argument. Feels like a loss for gamers going forward to know that all your games are subject to woke "sensitivity reading" and simply will not be allowed to launch without at least some pandering to "Modern Audiences".
There's a kind of "boiling frog" feel to this one. Hopefully I am totally wrong.
Without more details about the situation the game is a "wait and see" for now.
My feeling, based on the attitude of the developers at the launch of the first game, is that the publisher has come along and said "listen guys the game needs to have some LGBTQ content and you must have some racial diversity in there too" and those are non-negotiables from the publisher.
The game is already bought and paid for as far as development is concerned. The budget is spent. Devs have been paid etc. So revenues from sales of the game will be going to the publishers. Not sure how willing I would be to pay for this knowing they've got their agenda wedged in there.
I definitely get the dismissal of its just one scene or one character or one dialogue choice in a huge game. I get that it's hardly the end of the world.
Still doesn't feel right though. Feels like an absolute win for the wrong side of this argument. Feels like a loss for gamers going forward to know that all your games are subject to woke "sensitivity reading" and simply will not be allowed to launch without at least some pandering to "Modern Audiences".
There's a kind of "boiling frog" feel to this one. Hopefully I am totally wrong.
You were slamming him for being anti-Christian * (whatever that means...), whereas the only thing he has done is rail (quite rightly) against people claiming KCD as a Christian game in the first place and that somehow with the sequel he is subverting it (because ...* reasons* ... ). Yet even you're acknowledging that KCD is a historical RPG, and not something attempting to preach Christian Values of right and wrong. You can play Henry as the most pious law-abiding saint, or the worst scumbag to ever come out of Skalitz. The choice is yours, but outside of being caught by the local guard and any reputational hit you might suffer from the locals, whatever route you go has no impact on the principal storyline.
I recommend watching that video I posted from 2018 in full, and how the game came into being. There's no agenda there. He's not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes, or lie to them as part of some grand Machiavellian plan. The guy had an idea for a style of game no one else had ever done before. He did some historical research for a period he was interested in. Came across the sacking of Skalitz and was inspired to come up with an RPG building off of that. Then it was a case of others coming in and a team forming to gather as much information as they could about the region and events and try and fill in the blanks as best they could. He even acknowledges that people did travel from regions based on the historical record and that international trade was around even then. The only aspect he rallied against was the idea that diversity was commonplace as pushed by the likes of Arthur Gies.
* Also and not to put too fine a point on it, but ideas of what 'Christianity' means are fairly mixed, to say the least. IIRC you're an American, so I would imagine you've probably been brought up by evangelists or something along those lines? I'm not religious, but I was brought up in the Church of England. You know what we never bang on about in the UK? The Book of Revelations. We aren't holding out for the rapture or any of the end of days talk from John, because we don't take that stuff literally. I'm no expert on Catholicism, but I also believe the Catholic Church's attitude is much the same. The Pope is not there on a Sunday preaching about the end times. The notion that Vavra was trying to say something Christian with KCD, is a case of belief projection on the part of the people making it, but it's also fair to say that their views aren't necessarily universal fare when it comes to whatever messaging they are assigning to it.
Yeah, I think we're mixing our signals here. I don't think it's a Christian game in the sense that it is made to promote Christianity. The hostility I was talking about was this Tweet, which was actually before the first game even came out, but I definitely missed it (I probably wouldn't have cared at the time, either, since I wasn't much of a believer then).
Yeah, all of that is why the intentional inclusion of sodomy and lecturing Mohammedans this time around is even more concerning.
I was raised compeltely secular, sadly, and it wasn't until quite recently that I came to Christianity (Orthodoxy, which I think is the only true Church). Honestly, the Evangelical clownery you're talking about is probably a big part of what pushed me away from Christianity for most of my life. Growing up in America in the 90s and 00s, it felt like it was either the crazy end times preaching Evangelicals, rock concert "non-denominational" sects, or pedophile rapist Catholic priests, so I dismissed the whole thing.
Too bad about the Church of England. They really lost the plot trying to chase after the world and get with the times, and your story is probably shared by like 90% of native Britons of your generation.
Anyway, I think I've derailed enough. I just wanted to clarify what I meant.
You seem to be missing some context there. From what I can tell this was a response to a lengthy conversation he was having with someone, rather than some singular random Twitter proclamation. It appears the other person has deleted their tweets or their account, so we can't see their responses, or what triggered the original exchange. There are just snippets. However, in response to someone else in the same chain he also defends Christianity: -
Based on what can be seen of the whole, I don't see it that he is attacking Christianity as a religion (the teachings), versus lamenting the fact that the early Christian Church (the organisation) went out of its way to destroy a lot of the Slavic paganism that preceded it (which was distinct from Nordic Paganism), and that he has no personal investment in defending Christianity as such. There are quite a few Sites of Interest in KCD such as burial mounds and wooden statues that are pre-Christian. There is no real reason for them to be in there from a gameplay perspective. However I hazard as a history buff with an eye on the past, this stuff is important to him, which is why it was included.
Beyond that one screenshot is there any more context to that? Because for all we know, Henry or others clap back at him in the game. You're jumping to magnanimous conclusions from what I can tell.
The point I was making was perceptions of Christianity vary because Christianity isn't one amorphous universal blob, versus a whole array of different entities running with their interpretation on matters, and that it would be a mistake to assume that people are necessarily talking on the same wavelength when trying to discuss it. I wasn't inviting some dick-measuring contest as to which denomination is the best, but good for you if you believe you're on the winning team and everyone else has lost their way.
TheGamer apparently wants people to hate the game (article is from Aug 2024, weirdly enough)
Typical Dpad. No nuance is allowed. Everything is food for outrage.
Goes for AC Shadows too
Oh, come on. These are two wildly different situations.
Hey, he did say that no nuance was allowed. He just wasn't admitting that he was describing himself!
No nuance please, this is DPad.
Well, I have good historically rooted reasons for believing this, but I won't elaborate them here. I certainly am not happy about how much of what was once Christendom has so lost its way, but I'll never give up hope that people will come around and return home some day.
Phunkydiabetic
Prince of the Land of Stench
No, it's the medieval game where you have homosexual sex with a pilgrim.
