Hostile Face/Off S2 R3: Star Wars KOTOR vs Metal Gear Solid 2

[Mickmrly]

Welcome to the 3rd Round of the Hostile Face/Off competition.

Each poll will last for 24 hours, with new matchups released every weekday.

The 2 games fighting it out in this thread are:

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic (2003)

Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty (2001)

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[regawdless]

MGS2. I'm a huge Kojima fan, as you all know.

 

[Pyrate]

Still coming back to MGS2 as recently as yesterday, for VR Missions. I now have 31 hours just in VR alone.

 

[Zeta Dragoon]

I respect Metal Gear Solid 2 as one of the best games ever made but Kotor is a top 5, likely top 3 of all time game for me.

Kotor is better then the Prequels, destroys the sequels and is arguably on par or even above the Orginal Trilogy itself no small feat at all.

 

[HE1NZ]

KOTOR because MGS2 is barely a game

 

[DonDonDonPata]

KOTOR because MGS2 is barely a game

As if KotOR is anything more than dialogue trees and watching your characters miss blaster shots…

 

[HE1NZ]

As if KotOR is anything more than dialogue trees and watching your characters miss blaster shots…

There's some choices to make, inventory management and other RPG goodies. But I'm not huge on it either. KOTOR 2 is superior.

 

[Stilton Disco]

KOTOR deserves it as the better game anyway, but I hate MGS2 for the ending, where the game took control away from me and made Raiden cry like a little bitch, getting Olga killed in the process, because apparently those last 3 metal gears were just too much, regardless of how easily you wiped the floor with the first 20.

 

[mcz117chief]

I never liked MGS2, by far my least favorite Metal Gear game. I couldn't stomach how you often times run into the camera so you know nothing of what is in front of you. So what was happening to me very often, I would not see the enemy until I bodychecked him. People told me "you have to go into first person every half a second to see what is in front". Bruh, that is not a good game design. The first game has the soliton radar and your character generally stays in the middle of the screen but not in 2. I love the whole series and spin-offs (AC!D, Portable Ops, Peacewalker, Rising) but I really hate the second game.

 

[Pyrate]

I never liked MGS2, by far my least favorite Metal Gear game. I couldn't stomach how you often times run into the camera so you know nothing of what is in front of you. So what was happening to me very often, I would not see the enemy until I bodychecked him. People told me "you have to go into first person every half a second to see what is in front". Bruh, that is not a good game design. The first game has the soliton radar and your character generally stays in the middle of the screen but not in 2. I love the whole series and spin-offs (AC!D, Portable Ops, Peacewalker, Rising) but I really hate the second game.

I can't recall a single instance where I couldn't know what's in front of me, the camera is always at angle so the visibility is optimal, and unless you played on Extreme, the radar is in the game too.

 

[[Tact]]

KOTOR because MGS2 is barely a game

I also picked KOTOR. I'm playing MGS2 right now and the controls make me want to rip my hair out. I'm normally immune to clunk, but this is brutal.

I can't recall a single instance where I couldn't know what's in front of me, the camera is always at angle so the visibility is optimal, and unless you played on Extreme, the radar is in the game too.

There are several instances where you won't see an enemy if they are far enough away from you down a hallway. Especially if you don't have the Radar Node, or if the area in on alert.

 

[Pyrate]

There are several instances where you won't see an enemy if they are far enough away from you down a hallway. Especially if you don't have the Radar Node, or if the area in on alert.

This must be a case of just not being good enough lmao. I like the punishment of stripping you out of the radar when you fuck up the stealth. And thanks for bringing up the Radar Node, it's a really cool mechanic forcing you to not rely on the radar and actually use your eyes for every new Strut you stumble upon, it makes the first venture into a new part of the map exciting each time. In any case, I don't believe there's a visibility issue as much as the player not using the corner mechanics, or yes, the First Person mode properly. just learn the game and play how its meant to be played.

I highly disagree that the controls are clunky, I know clunky controls, and these are not it at all. This is like the kids saying REmake 4 has better controls and that the original controls are clunky.

 

[Asmonius]

Playing Pazaak > playing as whiny pre-cyborg Raiden.

 

[[Tact]]

This must be a case of just not being good enough lmao. I like the punishment of stripping you out of the radar when you fuck up the stealth. And thanks for bringing up the Radar Node, it's a really cool mechanic forcing you to not rely on the radar and actually use your eyes for every new Strut you stumble upon, it makes the first venture into a new part of the map exciting each time. In any case, I don't believe there's a visibility issue as much as the player not using the corner mechanics, or yes, the First Person mode properly. just learn the game and play how its meant to be played.

I highly disagree that the controls are clunky, I know clunky controls, and these are not it at all. This is like the kids saying REmake 4 has better controls and that the original controls are clunky.

I don't particularly care about stripping the radar, I'm just mentioning that you don't always have it.

I'm playing the GoG release of Substance, and the first person sensitivity on the aiming is inconsistent, which is bothersome. In some cases it's so sensitive I overshoot the enemy, in others it's so slow I can't even track the enemies at their walking speed. The game also lacks the pressure sensitivity it originally had, so you have to release the fire button to shoot with handguns. But that isn't the case with rifles. They start shooting the second the button is pressed, meaning you can't actually aim in first person with the rifle's model on the screen. And there are certain walls that when you try to peak around the corner the controls invert because the camera angle changes, which then pulls you away from the corner or sometimes even the wall itself. This has gotten me spotted multiple times.

I don't know if this is just the way the game is, or if these are issues with the version I'm playing. I was exaggerating with the hair pulling comment, but either way, these issues make it obtuse and often frustrating. Call it a skill issue all you want, but having my inputs sometimes invert on me, or Raiden aim speed change is upsetting.

The part that's strange is I had none of these issues when playing as Snake on the Tanker section, and I actually felt the controls were very intuitive. But for whatever reason sometimes Raiden just refuses to cooperate.

 

[Mickmrly]

I respect Metal Gear Solid 2 as one of the best games ever made but Kotor is a top 5, likely top 3 of all time game for me.

Kotor is better then the Prequels, destroys the sequels and is arguably on par or even above the Orginal Trilogy itself no small feat at all.

KOTOR is probably the best written Star Wars video game. The other games are fun, but don't really have as much depth.

I did try doing a dark side run, but after I stole something from an NPC during a quest I felt bad and didn't want to be a sith anymore.

 

[Zeta Dragoon]

KOTOR is probably the best written Star Wars video game. The other games are fun, but don't really have as much depth.

I did try doing a dark side run, but after I stole something from an NPC during a quest I felt bad and didn't want to be a sith anymore.

Kotors Dark Side route absolutely does not fuck around. I personally can't stomach evil playthoughs and it has the kind of stuff (killing half your party, Mission) that I'm sorta surprised Fox did not go after that, or Dragon Age letting you deal with a demon, instead of GTA hot coffee and the absolute nothing that were the Mass Effect romances back in the day. Postal, Manhunt I think also got attention but I did not and still don't have interest in those games.

Closest modern day equivalents would be Lich/Swarm routes in Pathfinder Wrath of the Rightous where anyone in your party with a shred of morality instantly ditches you. Or going full Chaos in Rogue Trader.

 

[Torrent of Pork]

KOTOR, and that was a very hard decision.

 

[Pyrate]

I'm playing the GoG release of Substance, and the first person sensitivity on the aiming is inconsistent, which is bothersome. In some cases it's so sensitive I overshoot the enemy, in others it's so slow I can't even track the enemies at their walking speed. The game also lacks the pressure sensitivity it originally had, so you have to release the fire button to shoot with handguns. But that isn't the case with rifles. They start shooting the second the button is pressed, meaning you can't actually aim in first person with the rifle's model on the screen. And there are certain walls that when you try to peak around the corner the controls invert because the camera angle changes, which then pulls you away from the corner or sometimes even the wall itself. This has gotten me spotted multiple times.

The ADS aiming is like that on purpose, it's a common way of making aiming not trivial by not being snappy and humanely unnatural like modern games, I think it's totally fair if you don't like it, I don't necesssrily love it but I don't mind it as much. I don't consider this one a skill issue, just down to taste .

I don't know how they ported the game to PC without dealing with the pressure sensitive buttons?? That's a massive oversight if so, you can't do some VR Missions if you can't aim-but-not-shoot with rifles. The Xbox ports had tweaked controls to address this issue so I'm surprised the PC release didn't (well less surprised as I hear the PC release is garbage).

About corner view, the best way to move while hugging a wall is using R2/L2 to move left or right, this should fix your issue of accidentally leaving cover.

You indirectly mentioned a very real issue with the game which is the strange way moving near to cover is handled in the game, I'm not a gamedev so I can't explain it in proper terms, but it feels like the friction values or whatever aren't set up well, if I want to get into cover I'd have to move at basically exactly 90 degrees perpendicular to the wall to successfully get in cover, or I'd just miss the wall and move past it, or keep moving parallel to it. Moving the sticks in such a precise way is something that's essier said than done. The D-Pad has its own issues so that's not a good alternative. In general there is an issue with player movement in the game

Raiden is straight up an upgrade over Snake gameplay-wise, his roll is better than Snake's, and you can actually use it to jump between gaps unlike Snake. I think you only started having the issues because the Tanker chapter is short so it's possible it wasn't enough to encounter the issues, while you play Raiden for the rest of the game.

Finally, if what I wrote sounds excessively deep, blame it on the VR Missions. 30 hours of VR training and I feel like some kind of legendary mercenary...

 

[mcz117chief]

I can't recall a single instance where I couldn't know what's in front of me, the camera is always at angle so the visibility is optimal, and unless you played on Extreme, the radar is in the game too.

I vividly remember that you had to activate the radar as you played, it wasn't available all the time, and that the camera would often be in Raiden's face or he would be at the very top of the screen allowing you to see only behind you unless you spammed first person view every step you take.

Doing a google search shows you that this is a common criticism.

 

[[Tact]]

Finally, if what I wrote sounds excessively deep, blame it on the VR Missions. 30 hours of VR training and I feel like some kind of legendary mercenary...

Don't worry, I appreciate in the depth conversation. I know that sometimes the game will sort of snap to an enemy and the slower ADS aiming is to allow for more precision. I just find that with the GoG release it's very difficult to, for example, hit the radios if the enemy moves even a small amount. Although I have limited experience, so I might genuinely be a skill issue.

As for the rifles I don't know if there is a button to aim and not shoot... So far if I press fire Raiden will just magdump. Trying to get any kind of precision in first person without using the autoaim feels like a fool's errand.

As far as I can tell this is a PC port of the 2003 release of Substance. So I don't know if the Master Collection version from a few years ago handles all this better.

 

[Pyrate]

As far as I can tell this is a PC port of the 2003 release of Substance. So I don't know if the Master Collection version from a few years ago handles all this better.

The FPS aiming I doubt is any different from the original release, it's a design choice, nothing technical to fix. I actually can't tell if the game does in fact slow down the aim when you hover over an enemy or not lol, I just snap into enemies heads now after so many hours of training yet I can't tell you how it works... just sheer muscle memory I guess.

Also, I just bothered to look the pressure sensitive controls up and apparently the Xbox controls have been carried over to the PC release you're playing:

In the PC version of MGS2, as well as in the Xbox version of the HD COllection, you had to press and hold the left stick bumper when you release the aim button (square/X) to lower the weapon without shooting.

The same applies to the "Master" collection release you mentioned. Speaking of, I hear that with updates it's finally fixed where it's in an acceptable state now, took them long enough.

Of course, the best ever version of the game will forever be the Substance release played on PCSX2 emulator with a Dualshock 3 hooked in.