[regawdless]

Stumbled across this



It sparked a discussion about how much effort and time people are willing to invest "for free" during the application process. Some young people believe employers don't have the right to demand that much, saying "well then it's not a good place to work at" etc.

What's your opinion on this?

Personally, for me it's as simple as... It's a competition. If you're willing to put in a lot of effort, you'll get better opportunities. I want those opportunities, so I'm willing to invest more time than others if necessary, to get ahead of them.
If a company doesn't expect a certain level of effort, I'd question their ability to find the best people for the job. There are so many people out there who are great at pretending, presenting themselves as more qualified than they really are etc. and hiring the wrong person, doing the onboarding process, to then realize they aren't qualified or don't fit it, to then start the process again, that's very expensive and costs a lot of time. Companies can't afford that.

Sure, some shit that's expected for lower level jobs can get ridiculous, like days of Assessment Centers for an internship. But regarding more demanding and important jobs, I'd say it's necessary to get deeper. Of course that means a lot of effort is for nothing because you don't get every job you apply for. On the other hand, it prevents misunderstandings and ensures a good fit for both sides.

The manager dude who shared this got some good applicants after the Tweet:



And death threats

 

[p_banned]

I had read like something that 80% of candidates are no shows for interviews. It's ridiculous.

 

[Arkam]

I do not always have my applicants(software engineers) test. If you have are a Senior level engineer with a solid resume I do not test. Its a waste of time and you can understand their knowledge/ability in the interview. But when you are fresh out of college or have limited experience, I sure as fuck test you to make sure you know any thing. I keep my tests <2hours so its not a major investment. If you cannot give me two hours to demonstrate your ability, I didnt want you anyway.

Of course unless the test is live, there is the possibility the person is cheating (AI, Stand in, etc). But hey at least they put in the effort to cheat!

 

[p_banned]

I do not always have my applicants(software engineers) test. If you have are a Senior level engineer with a solid resume I do not test. Its a waste of time and you can understand their knowledge/ability in the interview. But when you are fresh out of college or have limited experience, I sure as fuck test you to make sure you know any thing. I keep my tests <2hours so its not a major investment. If you cannot give me two hours to demonstrate your ability, I didnt want you anyway.

Of course unless the test is live, there is the possibility the person is cheating (AI, Stand in, etc). But hey at least they put in the effort to cheat!

For younger folks I did made them pass IQ tests. Better someone intelligent that can learn on the job than a bookworm.

 

[TaySan]

Tests are one thing. While projects are another thing for something that is not guaranteed.

 

[DonDonDonPata]

In theory, tests like these are great! A company can weed out applicants more effectively while also finding some rough gems who might not have the best resume but can pass your test. Instead of leaning so heavily on certifications and degrees, you can hire the folks who actually fit the role and you can dip into a cheaper pool of employees who aren't expecting as high of a pay. Win win.

But...

This is assuming the company has excellent internal organization and knows what they are looking for. Usually, these tests are a pet-project for an HR team with a poor record of making good hires. "Oh don't worry," they'll say when management points out the low success rate of new hires. "We've developed this test to do a much better job of screening. It'll save us a ton of time and money". Or the test is farmed out to a third party who writes and administers it.

If you want the job, do their test. But companies are guilty of wasting so much time for no real reason so I can understand why someone wouldn't want to put in so much effort just to hear back "Thank you for your interest but we have filled the role with another candidate".

 

[Neil Young]

Eh, most employers treat you like shit. It used to be you would go in for one face to face interview and you were done. Now, they want like 2 phone interviews, in person, tests, psychological exams etc. Then, after spending all that time, they won't even send you a fucking email telling you you weren't chosen.

The job I had before my current one was for a large biotech company. 2 phone interviews, a FIVE HOUR whole day interview that included a lunch break. I had to give a presentation and meet with 5 people individually. This was for a position paying 50k….in California.

So yeah, fuck these pansies that can't take a test, but also fuck the corpos that expect us to do a little dance every time we need a job.

 

[Grinchy]

It's going to vary by field, but if you need to put in 20+ applications per day for weeks on end before even landing 3 interviews, then those 20+ applications can't each take 90 minutes.

If you want some remote job, you have to literally apply at 100s of places before you get lucky that the resume bot chooses to send yours along to human eyes. Then you need even more luck to be picked out of that pile. So I imagine the ones that have long assessment tests get skipped by a lot of people for that reason.

 

[LtGoose]

When I was applying for jobs that didn't require any certain license or certification, the interview process was ass.

Go online and fill out a 100 question personality survey, listen to this 10 minute video of our company culture and complete this work module. If successful we'll contact you for an in person interview. Oh the pay rate? You'll find out if you're hired.

Compared to a licensed position:
Is your license still active?
When does it expire?
Here's how much we pay can you start next Monday?

I'll jump thru the application hoops though because when I'm looking for a job I send an application to every single open position I can find. Work will free you...

 

[regawdless]

It's going to vary by field, but if you need to put in 20+ applications per day for weeks on end before even landing 3 interviews, then those 20+ applications can't each take 90 minutes.

These tests come in the later stages of the process, when the first interview has been successful. So it only happens in the few where you get to that point.

 

[Grinchy]

These tests come in the later stages of the process, when the first interview has been successful. So it only happens in the few where you get to that point.

I was kinda thinking along the lines of the application process when it comes to entry level remote jobs. Not strenuous tests of knowledge/skill in the field, but like personality assessments, writing prompts, and other shit like that. They can make a simple resume submission take you an hour before you've ever had even the tiniest chance at the job. And people fucking hate those (for good reason).

 

[regawdless]

@Grinchy I was about to add to my point above, now read your post and it goes into a similar direction. Here's what I just wrote:

That said there was a time span during and after my studies, where the application process was INSANE, at least in Germany.

Every large company had their own system, where you had to register and fill in all your details. Then, instead of just uploading your application, you had to fill in everything on their page. But it was different for every company. You had to manually add every qualification, every step from your CV, upload every document individually for some companies, others wanted different formats, or sorted in categories, others wanted you to upload PDF files for every category of information, some asked for your motivation, others why you think you're the most qualified etc.

It took so fucking long to just get all the information into their dumb systems. There are still some companies who have very "uncomfortable" ways to get your basic information. Can be a chore and can take way more time than it should.

Luckily, most of them (at least from my experience) abandoned that shit and now you can simply upload your CV or send it to them, some AI automatically puts that into their systems.

 

[Boss Mog]

GenZ is truly a shit generation.

 

[DonDonDonPata]

GenZ is truly a shit generation.

plenty of things to pin on GenZ, but refusal to do a 90 minute test isn't one of them. This is more a case of egotistical Gen X and Boomers hazing the "newcomers" far above and beyond anything they had to go through just because they can, and then smugly mocking them.

 

[regawdless]

GenZ is in an interesting spot:

- In many areas, there aren't enough (good) people available for the companies
- Making the companies weaker, forcing them to be softer towards the workers (work life balance, working from home, providing a positive environment...)
- A good chunk of GenZ people are spoiled brats who have previously unrealistic demands that now suddenly have to be met because there isn't an alternative
- Companies go along with it, it's getting worse and worse, people are demanding 4 day work weeks for the same pay
- Other countries will eat their launch mid term

 

[Stouffers]

Tests are one thing. While projects are another thing for something that is not guaranteed.

I once had to give a 1.5 hour sales presentation in my final interview complete with prep that took another couple of hours. Cry me a fucking river.

 

[quickwhips]

I make people solve something with powershell during every interview. Fuck me. I don't even care half time it's right or finished if they are on right path to solving it.

 

[Mickmrly]

I think the demands of an interview should scale based on the quality of the job you are applying for. A longer interview process with a couple of hours spent on projects is fine for a well paid, more secure job. However, spending hours on an interview for a simple job with no real need for a long interview process is just a waste of everyone's time.

 

[Chozofication]

plenty of things to pin on GenZ, but refusal to do a 90 minute test isn't one of them. This is more a case of egotistical Gen X and Boomers hazing the "newcomers" far above and beyond anything they had to go through just because they can, and then smugly mocking them.

It depends on what it is but your general bs corpo job yeah fuck that i'm not spending 90 minutes.

 

[Boss Mog]

plenty of things to pin on GenZ, but refusal to do a 90 minute test isn't one of them. This is more a case of egotistical Gen X and Boomers hazing the "newcomers" far above and beyond anything they had to go through just because they can, and then smugly mocking them.

I completely disagree. It's common practice to have to take a test for certain jobs. Refusing to do so makes you come off as entitled and not motivated. I once applied for a writing job at a local news website and I had to go down to their office and take a 3 hour test in which I had to write a complete article on a subject I knew little about.

 

[DonDonDonPata]

I completely disagree. It's common practice to have to take a test for certain jobs. Refusing to do so makes you come off as entitled and not motivated. I once applied for a writing job at a local news website and I had to go down to their office and take a 3 hour test in which I had to write a complete article on a subject I knew little about.

The job market is full of nonsensical hiring practices. Tests are fine assuming the company knows how to use them. Financial modeling tests are an example of third-party assessment services that companies abuse thinking they are going to save a bunch of time and improve hiring quality. Why? Because that's how third parties advertise them.

And did you read the OP? It wasn't some "entitled and unmotivated" Gen Z applicant who posted the tweet complaining about the test. It was the hiring manager whining about "Gen Z applicant", unasked and unprovoked.

So I'll just repeat what I said earlier:

This is more a case of egotistical Gen X and Boomers hazing the "newcomers" far above and beyond anything they had to go through just because they can, and then smugly mocking them.

 

[Boss Mog]

The job market is full of nonsensical hiring practices. Tests are fine assuming the company knows how to use them. Financial modeling tests are an example of third-party assessment services that companies abuse thinking they are going to save a bunch of time and improve hiring quality. Why? Because that's how third parties advertise them.

And did you read the OP? It wasn't some "entitled and unmotivated" Gen Z applicant who posted the tweet complaining about the test. It was the hiring manager whining about "Gen Z applicant", unasked and unprovoked.

So I'll just repeat what I said earlier:

Who posted it is irrelevant in this case. In fact it makes way more sense that the hiring manager posted it.

 

[Optimus]

I've been reading for at least the past year about how hiring practices are moving away from experience-based hiring towards skills-based hiring. That pretty much means that skills assessments (aka tests) are becoming much more common, and from my experience this would appear to be true. That said, as a senior engineer I generally bump potential employers down on my list the moment I see a 90 minute assessment approaching, unless they really have something to offer that I find special. There are much better ways to assess my knowledge and skills that don't require me to spend a couple of hours doing a homework assignment, just being brutally honest. I would rather take a blind walk through code with the hiring manager or the whole damn software team than to go write some academic level functions or, worse, write you a couple of API endpoints and a new UI that leverages those endpoints. Like, seriously, F that sort of assessment.

[Long-ish story coming up]
Something I didn't mention on here was that I recently got pushed out of a project (basically every developer from my employer stopped receiving hours for the project), and in my field your project is your pay check (no project == no pay check). This necessitated that I begin looking for a new job while my employer also tried to figure something out. I had a cloud business I was considering going to work for, and the interviews with them went well enough. They seemed alright, actually, but some aspects of their growth plan didn't give me a lot of confidence in their longer term company health. I don't want to delve deeply into the details, but I had doubts. Well, along came the 90-minute skills assessment. I probably spent a good hour just playing around with the software they use. It would have been an easy thing to pass, but the problem I have with it is that I talked shop with the manager for over an hour and would have immediately gone into another round of interviews with the lead developers. If you can't assess me from conversations and listening to how I answer your questions, I think maybe you're failing my skills assessment of your technical aptitude. I would have just solved your skills assessment problems on camera in like 20 minutes, so there's no need to give me a 90-minute timed assessment.

The conclusion to that story is I got hired by a really freaking cool group who didn't need to give me a skills assessment. They're totally bleeding edge with some very highly renowned researchers. I pretty much have joined Black Mesa, and that other Cloud business missed out on a highly skilled lead engineer. lol