Thread: Bloomberg deboonks The Tartary Empire Theory

Liberty4all

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Some of you may remember I talked a lot about this in the past. Well recently Bloomberg decide to deboonk the theory.


The funny thing is they did a great job in the article laying out core parts of the theory, and a shit job disproving it. They literally resort to the same “logic” they use whenever ANYTHING they dislike comes up in discourse.
 
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Some of you may remember I talked a lot about this in the past. Well recently Bloomberg decide to deboonk the theory.


The funny thing is they did a great job in the article laying out core parts of the theory, and a shit job disproving it. They literally resort to the same “logic” they use whenever ANYTHING they dislike comes up in discourse.

I'm not willing to apply suspension of disbelief toward a theory whose name implies that a region of the world that has produced nothing but exceptionally warlike nomadic horsemen for thousands of years is secretly the home of a vast hidden empire.

Shitty Bloomberg articles aside, what do you find convincing about the theory?
 
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worlds-fair_san-fran_palaces_popout.png
For me it's the leftover architecture as well as the impossibility of the world fairs at the time.

Part of the tartary conspiracy is that history was erased/changed and we’ve been lied to on what “real” history actually is.

The general gist of the theory is that in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries their existed an empire called Tartaria that covered most of Russia, China and parts of North America.

Map from 1652:

There are many other maps from the 17th century showing tartary clearly on it. Just google it.

The Tartary Empire supposedly utilized free energy (Many think Telsa just rediscovered this tech before he too was discredited). Their buildings all were built based on vibrational frequency designed to catch free energy from the atmosphere.

At some point in the 19th century their empire was obliterated and any trace of their civilizational tech destroyed. Countless examples of tartary architecture exists throughout the world. While they (elites) destroyed many buildings in North America, others became landmark buildings such as libraries or banks.

Once you recognize the Tartary architecture style you realize that it’s literally all over the world. Entire empty cities existed in North America supposedly when settlers arrived (see San Francisco pics below)

World fairs were supposedly a cover to destroy a lot of tartary architecture.

Look at these ones from 1893 (Chicago):
maxresdefault.jpg



1893-chicago-fair-white-city-day.jpg



The San Francisco 1915 one was held in a pre existing city which they claimed to have built for the fair (seriously):
PPIE.jpg




YouTube has lots of videos too. Look at the YouTube video of the San Fran 1915 fair:

It’s mind blowing. They literally are standing by insane palaces and shit.

They claimed the buildings were made of plaster and they destroyed them all after the fairs. :/.

This subreddit talks about it to some extent:/r/CulturalLayer/

/r/CulturalLayer/comments/asfijs/best_of_culturallayer_and_resource_guide_amended/

You can see architecture here:

/r/tartarianarchitecture/

More here:

/r/Tartaria/

Anyways it is a huge rabbit hole the tartary stuff. Have fun with it!
 
The San Francisco 1915 one was held in a pre existing city which they claimed to have built for the fair (seriously):
PPIE.jpg




YouTube has lots of videos too. Look at the YouTube video of the San Fran 1915 fair:

It’s mind blowing. They literally are standing by insane palaces and shit.

They claimed the buildings were made of plaster and they destroyed them all after the fairs. :/.


Why is the official explanation not to be believed for this one?


I mean, we have similar shit (if not to the same scale) in Disneyland.

For me, it's similar to the flat earth stuff in that the level of global coordination that would required to cover this up for seemingly zero practical value is just a bit too insane.
 
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So San Francisco was razed to the ground in 1906. Like almost completely destroyed in the earthquake or so we are told. Yet within 7 years we are to believe that not only was the entire city rebuilt, but they also had the time to spend 3 more years building this? Look at the size and scale... It's almost half the size of the city. Some of the buildings are staggering the scale.

Even Disney would still take many years to build.
 
So San Francisco was razed to the ground in 1906. Like almost completely destroyed in the earthquake or so we are told. Yet within 7 years we are to believe that not only was the entire city rebuilt, but they also had the time to spend 3 more years building this? Look at the size and scale... It's almost half the size of the city. Some of the buildings are staggering the scale.

Even Disney would still take many years to build.
In the old days they actually used to build things. In Australia they have been talking about building dams in northern Australia from 2013 onwards, still haven't built anything.
 
This Tartary stuff is really fascinating and interesting to look up. It does seem kind of suspicious the levels of architecture and the scale and the idea of using these world fairs as cover to destroy these is pretty interesting.

There are also some scientifically proven harmonic frequencies and things of that nature for certain building structures, so especially with the domes and stuff I could see how people could theorize that it was a kind of free energy or distributed energy system taken from the atmosphere.

Personally I'm very suspicious about these world fairs and I just don't believe that the entire city of San Fran was cardboard/plywood/styrofoam or whatever and put together just for a world fair. I mean the level of work required for that, not to mention the roads and bridges and whatnot, if the buildings didn't exist and were put together with "fake" materials as a display for the fair, then where did the roads, paths and bridges come from? Did the world's fair guys build massive working bridges and roads and whatnot? I mean anything is possible but it seems kind of weird, I guess what I'm asking is, what was in the place of these supposed fake building's beforehand? Just a big massive field?

I can't say one way or the other but it definitely seems kind of sketchy to me.

Where these Tartary guys lose me is that nobody seems to be able to define exactly where this group or empire supposedly existed with sometimes massively different locations or vast areas. In addition the idea is supposed to be that some alliance of world powers who were inferior to these guys at least in some capacity rose up to annihilate them and take over their land. I have even heard some theorize that this Tartary empire were actually the world's leading super power/empire and that most other countries were vassal states and that is why they all rose up in unison.

But then in the case of the Americas, the theory is that large swaths of north America were owned by this empire in some capacity and colonized to the point they had built large cities in place of where we have cities like San Fran, Chicago etc... today. But then that would mean that massive amounts of history are fabricated to erase their existence and all the history we know is massively distorted. While this could be true it seems like such a massive undertaking.

Regarding the existing cities in North America, if this empire was defeated in combat then surely these cities would show the marks of these crazy battles with large parts burnt to the ground or otherwise destroyed etc...right? Is the idea that these entire cities were somehow abandoned and left idle? And if so, why?

Where the Tartary guys really lose me is when they start linking this stuff with the "mud flood" theory that goes something like at some unspecified point in time, at some unspecified region in the world, an unspecified cataclysmic event happened that caused a huge flood of mud to envelop most of the world. These people often state that this event must have had a focal point in the heart of Tartary and after this wiped out the leadership the vassal states/outer rims were easier to conquer.

But the thing is, for a flood of mud to reach across the globe...it makes no sense given the geography/logistics. I mean they state this likely happened somewhere in northern Russia/Mongolia, but then it went widespread across continental Asia, Japan, North/South America, Africa. Europe, even as far as Ireland. And they claim this even happened sometime in the 18th/19th century. In addition to this they link in with some kind of weird religious angle about mud floods predicted in the bible or whatever and my eyes roll heavily.

I'm not trying to be a deboonker, just stating my issues/thoughts with a lot of this stuff. So then in conjunction with the mud flood stuff you also have some of the religious types stating that because some of these buildings have large gates/doors that they must have been designed for giants and that the world is covering up the existence of giants as recently as the 18/19 hundreds. Again because the bible talks about giants/Nephilim. So at these points I tend to just shut down and be like "ok buddy".

In addition going back to just the Tartary stuff, some of the architectures that these people claim are definitive "Tartary style" tend to encompass some vastly different styles and in different locations. It all kind of falls apart for me in the end.

But I do find the world's fair's suspicious in the US and find the topic fascinating I don't buy the overall theories.
 
This Tartary stuff is really fascinating and interesting to look up. It does seem kind of suspicious the levels of architecture and the scale and the idea of using these world fairs as cover to destroy these is pretty interesting.

There are also some scientifically proven harmonic frequencies and things of that nature for certain building structures, so especially with the domes and stuff I could see how people could theorize that it was a kind of free energy or distributed energy system taken from the atmosphere.

Personally I'm very suspicious about these world fairs and I just don't believe that the entire city of San Fran was cardboard/plywood/styrofoam or whatever and put together just for a world fair. I mean the level of work required for that, not to mention the roads and bridges and whatnot, if the buildings didn't exist and were put together with "fake" materials as a display for the fair, then where did the roads, paths and bridges come from? Did the world's fair guys build massive working bridges and roads and whatnot? I mean anything is possible but it seems kind of weird, I guess what I'm asking is, what was in the place of these supposed fake building's beforehand? Just a big massive field?

I can't say one way or the other but it definitely seems kind of sketchy to me.

Where these Tartary guys lose me is that nobody seems to be able to define exactly where this group or empire supposedly existed with sometimes massively different locations or vast areas. In addition the idea is supposed to be that some alliance of world powers who were inferior to these guys at least in some capacity rose up to annihilate them and take over their land. I have even heard some theorize that this Tartary empire were actually the world's leading super power/empire and that most other countries were vassal states and that is why they all rose up in unison.

But then in the case of the Americas, the theory is that large swaths of north America were owned by this empire in some capacity and colonized to the point they had built large cities in place of where we have cities like San Fran, Chicago etc... today. But then that would mean that massive amounts of history are fabricated to erase their existence and all the history we know is massively distorted. While this could be true it seems like such a massive undertaking.

Regarding the existing cities in North America, if this empire was defeated in combat then surely these cities would show the marks of these crazy battles with large parts burnt to the ground or otherwise destroyed etc...right? Is the idea that these entire cities were somehow abandoned and left idle? And if so, why?

Where the Tartary guys really lose me is when they start linking this stuff with the "mud flood" theory that goes something like at some unspecified point in time, at some unspecified region in the world, an unspecified cataclysmic event happened that caused a huge flood of mud to envelop most of the world. These people often state that this event must have had a focal point in the heart of Tartary and after this wiped out the leadership the vassal states/outer rims were easier to conquer.

But the thing is, for a flood of mud to reach across the globe...it makes no sense given the geography/logistics. I mean they state this likely happened somewhere in northern Russia/Mongolia, but then it went widespread across continental Asia, Japan, North/South America, Africa. Europe, even as far as Ireland. And they claim this even happened sometime in the 18th/19th century. In addition to this they link in with some kind of weird religious angle about mud floods predicted in the bible or whatever and my eyes roll heavily.

I'm not trying to be a deboonker, just stating my issues/thoughts with a lot of this stuff. So then in conjunction with the mud flood stuff you also have some of the religious types stating that because some of these buildings have large gates/doors that they must have been designed for giants and that the world is covering up the existence of giants as recently as the 18/19 hundreds. Again because the bible talks about giants/Nephilim. So at these points I tend to just shut down and be like "ok buddy".

In addition going back to just the Tartary stuff, some of the architectures that these people claim are definitive "Tartary style" tend to encompass some vastly different styles and in different locations. It all kind of falls apart for me in the end.

But I do find the world's fair's suspicious in the US and find the topic fascinating I don't buy the overall theories.
This is my stance too pretty much.

There's no denying history is at best a lot of informed guesswork in some periods, and there's huge chunks of probably massively influential events we have barely any evidence for today, but the sheer scale of what's been suggested in this and the mud flood hypotheses are just too large to be realistic.

Of course it also helps me to not believe in this stuff because I'm European, and we have way more complete and consistent historical records going back millenia further than Americans do.

In Britain alone you can trace the steady incremental increase in architectural complexity and evolving styles of building design in person simply by visiting national trust or English heritage sites, even read the names of the architects and builders kept in diaries or carved into the stonework, then visit their graves at the local church, going back hundreds and hundreds of years.
 
So San Francisco was razed to the ground in 1906. Like almost completely destroyed in the earthquake or so we are told. Yet within 7 years we are to believe that not only was the entire city rebuilt, but they also had the time to spend 3 more years building this? Look at the size and scale... It's almost half the size of the city. Some of the buildings are staggering the scale.

Even Disney would still take many years to build.

The city I was born in, Savannah, burnt to the ground twice; once in 1796, and once in 1820. Both times, the burnt portions were rebuilt. In Savannah, literally almost nothing in the entire city is older than 1796, because of the severity of the fire. Yet within a few years, the city was larger than before. Buildings can and were thrown up quickly in the past.

At the very least I don’t believe the history we are taught. At all.
This is great I’m going to look into this !

"We" as in...? And which period of history do you believe to be incorrect? All of it? Some? If the answer is "all", then how would you even go about figuring out the truth? If absolutely everything taught about history is a lie, then there is also no way for you to be able to find the truth. If the lie is truly that vast and uniform across the whole world, then you have no hope of finding the truth out yourself.

I'm not trying to be a deboonker, just stating my issues/thoughts with a lot of this stuff. So then in conjunction with the mud flood stuff you also have some of the religious types stating that because some of these buildings have large gates/doors that they must have been designed for giants and that the world is covering up the existence of giants as recently as the 18/19 hundreds. Again because the bible talks about giants/Nephilim. So at these points I tend to just shut down and be like "ok buddy".

In addition going back to just the Tartary stuff, some of the architectures that these people claim are definitive "Tartary style" tend to encompass some vastly different styles and in different locations. It all kind of falls apart for me in the end.

Yeah, I agree. This particular theory is too far out there. I'm also not seeing the connection between building styles in the New World, and the traditional Eurasian Hordelands.
 
"We" as in...? And which period of history do you believe to be incorrect? All of it? Some? If the answer is "all", then how would you even go about figuring out the truth? If absolutely everything taught about history is a lie, then there is also no way for you to be able to find the truth. If the lie is truly that vast and uniform across the whole world, then you have no hope of finding the truth out yourself.”
@Ornlu

if I had to give a number I’d say probably 99%+ is bullshit the further you go back in time.
 
"We" as in...? And which period of history do you believe to be incorrect? All of it? Some? If the answer is "all", then how would you even go about figuring out the truth? If absolutely everything taught about history is a lie, then there is also no way for you to be able to find the truth. If the lie is truly that vast and uniform across the whole world, then you have no hope of finding the truth out yourself.”
@Ornlu

if I had to give a number I’d say probably 99%+ is bullshit the further you go back in time.
If you mean history as in everything that happened on Earth in the last 12,000 years, you're probably right, but if you're talking about recorded history, that is hugely exaggerated.

while there is no single agreed upon absolute 'history', as most people know it, there has been gathered a huge amount of evidence that the most likely explanations for are generally, broadly agreed upon, because alternative explanations for that evidence are simply unrealistic.

Sure, we can't be certain that, say, the roman Centurions remains found at Hadrians wall are from when they were carbon dated to, that the names of him and his family on his grave are accurate, or that corroborating records of him, found in the nearby rubbish dumps and Legion garrison, are all accurate, but they're a lot more viable to build from, to create the story of a man born in the Middle East, that became a Roman through army service, was posted to the edge of the Empire, where he settled down, married a local girl and had a family, than to make even more of a leap to throw all that evidence and the hypothesis of what happened to this man out entirely, because it might be lies.
 
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You guys are aware that world fairs are still being held today, right? They're called World Expo now. They're on irregular schedules and incredible city-wide structures are still being built for them.
The Korea 2012 Expo was stretching from the coast to a nearby island. Astana 2017 was straight out of a science-fiction movie and Dubai 2020 (now 2021 because of the pandemic) is, well...

expo2020-together-aerrbkqe.jpg
 
Gotta add that DA JEWS were behind it all and then the theory will really catch on. Also say its RAYCIST, everything is RAYCIST today so that works.

Tartary were black Jews, the real Israelites, and then white Supremes decide to destroy them because they hate blacks and Jews, so they then hid behind climate change to kill them off, pretending it was the KKK, but really under those white robes is just cow farts increasing the temperature wherever black people are and then killing them.

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
 
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Gotta add that DA JEWS were behind it all and then the theory will really catch on. Also say its RAYCIST, everything is RAYCIST today so that works.

Tartary were black Jews, the real Israelites, and then white Supremes decide to destroy them because they hate blacks and Jews, so they then hid behind climate change to kill them off, pretending it was the KKK, but really under those white robes is just cow farts increasing the temperature wherever black people are and then killing them.

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Thank you brother crypto, for continuing to expose these Yakubian schemes! o_O
 
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The official authorities on what's true of today try and tell you bald-faced lies you can easily look up to disprove but shit you can barely verify like what happened 200 years ago or more we better just swallow that official narrative? lol
 
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The official authorities on what's true of today try and tell you bald-faced lies you can easily look up to disprove but shit you can barely verify like what happened 200 years ago or more we better just swallow that official narrative? lol

You can't verify anything with this particular theory. It isn't even coherent at face value.

Someone lying about one thing does not instantly make truth of what another person pointing out said lie is pushing. They can both be full of shit.
 
The official authorities on what's true of today try and tell you bald-faced lies you can easily look up to disprove but shit you can barely verify like what happened 200 years ago or more we better just swallow that official narrative? lol
Actually a lot of the past is genuinely more reliable than the current news media.

You can read a diary from hundreds of years ago, that was just a man's personal thoughts for himself, never meant to be read by anyone, then go to see the places he mentioned and dig up the remains of the same buildings, find the layer of Ash from the fire he mentioned, dig out the old local church records and read the same names in marriage certificates that independently confirm his wedding and wife, find the statue to him at the old building he used to work at, and see thwir records for the boring paperwork he signed to confirm he did the things he claimed to.

Compare that to the massive amount of entirely fantasy based bollocks you get on the BBC today, and I'll take well researched history over modern 24 hour news any day.
 
You can't verify anything with this particular theory. It isn't even coherent at face value.

Someone lying about one thing does not instantly make truth of what another person pointing out said lie is pushing. They can both be full of shit.

If you could verify it it wouldn't be a theory, the idea the official narrative is verifiable though is beyond dubious to me. You're lied to today about things caught on camera.
Actually a lot of the past is genuinely more reliable than the current news media.

You can read a diary from hundreds of years ago, that was just a man's personal thoughts for himself, never meant to be read by anyone, then go to see the places he mentioned and dig up the remains of the same buildings, find the layer of Ash from the fire he mentioned, dig out the old local church records and read the same names in marriage certificates that independently confirm his wedding and wife, find the statue to him at the old building he used to work at, and see thwir records for the boring paperwork he signed to confirm he did the things he claimed to.

Compare that to the massive amount of entirely fantasy based bollocks you get on the BBC today, and I'll take well researched history over modern 24 hour news any day.

I have no idea what this diary idea is talking about. My whole point is in an age where we can literally film something happening we'll be told it's not what we see but we're expected to 100% believe we know what happened hundreds of years ago, why? The best anyone can do is informed guess work mostly and for some reason we've decided one set of informed guesses trumps another.
 
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I don't for a minute believe we have been told the truth about the past, especially since many of these elite families like the Rockefellers go way back and are intimately involved with nation building. As @Explosive Zombie just said, it's clear we have been manipulated as a society for years. It's only the information explosion that's allowed the veil to be pulled back.

As for Tartaria it is a fun theory and there is plenty of stuff online that go into better and greater detail than I did.
 
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I have no idea what this diary idea is talking about. My whole point is in an age where we can literally film something happening we'll be told it's not what we see but we're expected to 100% believe we know what happened hundreds of years ago, why? The best anyone can do is informed guess work mostly and for some reason we've decided one set of informed guesses trumps another.
I was thinking mostly of the Diary of Samuel Pepys, which covers the absolute legends exploits from 1660 to 1669, and you can indeed do all the things I mentioned, since the bloke was hugely influential in the modernisation of the British Navy and thus there are some very well preserved corroborating pieces of evidence for the mad lads adventures.

But it's also just part of the enormous amount of history preserved around me literally anyone can go and have a look at anytime they want. Even just in my village we have the parish records and graves at the church, the local pub and the marks left on it from various owners, not to mention the inn part of it's guest books, all of which have details of what was going on here stretching back to well before the US even existed.

Which is the hub of what I think is why so many of these historical conspiracy theories exist.

America has bugger all history.

When evidence on exists for the last few hundred years, and most of it is sketchy at best due to the nature of the nations construction and people's, it's far easier to believe the past is a lie than when the school you went to had it's 500th anniversary when you were attending, and the main hall has the name of every former student that died in battle, as well as their birth and death dates going back all that time, engraved on the walls (which yes, genuinely was the case for my old school).

The past is just omnipresent here in Britain/Europe in a way it's simply not for yanks, so no wonder they don't have a firm sense of their place in time, but from my perspective the belief you could falsify all the stuff just lying around literally EVERYWHERE is just silly.
 
I was thinking mostly of the Diary of Samuel Pepys, which covers the absolute legends exploits from 1660 to 1669, and you can indeed do all the things I mentioned, since the bloke was hugely influential in the modernisation of the British Navy and thus there are some very well preserved corroborating pieces of evidence for the mad lads adventures.

But it's also just part of the enormous amount of history preserved around me literally anyone can go and have a look at anytime they want. Even just in my village we have the parish records and graves at the church, the local pub and the marks left on it from various owners, not to mention the inn part of it's guest books, all of which have details of what was going on here stretching back to well before the US even existed.

Which is the hub of what I think is why so many of these historical conspiracy theories exist.

America has bugger all history.

When evidence on exists for the last few hundred years, and most of it is sketchy at best due to the nature of the nations construction and people's, it's far easier to believe the past is a lie than when the school you went to had it's 500th anniversary when you were attending, and the main hall has the name of every former student that died in battle, as well as their birth and death dates going back all that time, engraved on the walls (which yes, genuinely was the case for my old school).

The past is just omnipresent here in Britain/Europe in a way it's simply not for yanks, so no wonder they don't have a firm sense of their place in time, but from my perspective the belief you could falsify all the stuff just lying around literally EVERYWHERE is just silly.

I just don't even know how much of what you're saying is actually in conflict with these theories is part of my issue. Like it doesn't answer me how they built San Fran in 28 years or things like that.
 
I just don't even know how much of what you're saying is actually in conflict with these theories is part of my issue. Like it doesn't answer me how they built San Fran in 28 years or things like that.
The same way China builds things now.

A fuckton of cheap labour and zero health and safety regulations.

This was around the time of the industrial revolution remember, where technological innovations, married to a huge birth rate and total callousness to the work force that drove it, threw humanity forward worldwide at an astonishing pace.

It's just in the US there isn't the reference points for the stuff that came before it, that was just as big and complicated, but constructed on a slower time frame due to more having to be done by hand.

We have similarly impressive great works over here in Britain, but the difference is we have more thorough records of everyone involved, where they were born, what changes and innovations they were responsible for and who trained them in the first place.

It just seems more amazing to Americans, because it was starting from scratch, going straight to building techniques that were honed over millenia in other countries, and without the context of existing structures that demonstrated the slow progress that had been involved in getting to that stage.
 
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A few problems I have with manipulated history:

1) It would require a huge amount of people to be involved with nobody spilling the beans (same as Flat Earth and other lol theories)

2) It would require massive amount of resources to track down all pre-existing records and destroy them all utterly while simultaneously replacing them with the new.

3) It would require truly legendary effort to make sure the new history perfectly aligns and no plot holes exist. Just think about it, professional writers can't come up with a 90 minute script without a million plotholes, inconsistencies, shortcuts and straight up nonsense yet somebody is able to rewrite the world's history down to minute details like when and where a lot of people were and what they were doing and yet have no mistakes in the narrative? Literally impossible. As someone who studied one of the most ridiculously hard historical topics (history of the Catholic Church) I can tell you straight up that not even in a million years could anyone write that down as fiction. The topic is too insanely vast and interconnected that it would be easier just to destroy the world and start over.


Still a cool theory for a sci-fi/fantasy novel that's for sure, thanks for bringing it to my attention, I might turn it into a D&D adventure.
 
I feel like you guys don't actually read what we say or check out the stuff we recc, like this stuff about plot holes and inconsistencies... they are there, some have been brought up to you, just pretend they don't exist. Or this idea that all pre-existing records must be wiped even though a lot of the theories for this are based on pre-existing records actually being correct. If you actually look into it and still come away with these conclusions that's cool but you're clearly not.
 
I feel like you guys don't actually read what we say or check out the stuff we recc, like this stuff about plot holes and inconsistencies... they are there, some have been brought up to you, just pretend they don't exist. Or this idea that all pre-existing records must be wiped even though a lot of the theories for this are based on pre-existing records actually being correct. If you actually look into it and still come away with these conclusions that's cool but you're clearly not.
Actually it's more that what is used as evidence for this stuff is usually the odd bit of incongruous evidence that goes against the majority of more reliable stuff.

And I say this as someone who adores history and archeology, especially out of place artifacts, like the roman artifacts found in America, tobacco beatles found in ancient Egyptian tombs, and the recently discovered evidence of Egyptian colonies in the British Isles.

I'm even down with the idea of there being lost technologies that used to be relatively common and fell out of use, then were forgotten, for whatever reason.

Geopolymerisatiom for instance is something we've discovered relatively recently that would explain a hell of a lot of the 'impossible' buildings from ancient civilisations, and it's not hard to imagine the knowledge for creating such building materials being lost over the millenia due to Wars and natural disasters.

None of us are arguing that the mostly agreed upon historys, based on the most reliable evidence going, areinfallible or anywhere near complete, but the big, deliberate, international manipulation of said historys, that stuff like the Tartary Empire relies upon, is just farcical compared to the evidence against it.
 
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I will say that this Tartary stuff is really fascinating, I remember going down the rabbit hole at first and being like "huh...that is really interesting..let me see more!" and I was starting to get to a point where I was almost entertaining it as a real possibility. Then I started asking myself a bunch of questions about how, why, where etc... and the whole thing kind of falls apart, at least for me.

Especially when linked in with all that mudflood stuff, which is pretty out there. I find a lot of this stuff tends to lead back to the Bible for some reason, almost like people trying to justify some part of scripture being real or whatever.

I think @Stilton Disco brings up some great points about how present and easy to verify a lot of modern history is here in Europe and how we can see the build up of things over time, whereas the Americas are still quite recent and so don't have that long standing history to build from.

Having said all of that, recent history is one thing, as can often be based on propaganda and various biases in the readings, even from the original time. For example if you find a British news article from 1846 that tries to make a case for British conquest of various nations as the peoples there were "inferior" or whatever and needed to be "saved" etc... then finding this article is certainly a true source document from the time period, but it doesn't make the conclusions or statements therein actually correct.

Moving beyond modern history back to more ancient history is where we run into problems, most of what we think we know is often later proven incorrect and based on faulty presumptions or miniscule evidence. It tends to also incorporate biases from the people investigating as well as even propaganda from time, such as Roman propaganda about the Celts for example during their conquest of Europe. There is also often an egocentrism that "oh those primitive people's from the past couldn't possibly have done X like we do! or Couldn't have invented or used Y or were not as educated as us!".

There also seems to be a massive fetishisation of ancient Rome and the Roman perspective/view on the world/other people's as well as a lesser fetishisation of ancient Greece. For example "only the Romans could have invented X!" taken as an absolute assumption when in reality the Romans simply learned about and copied X from some other people that they interacted with/invaded etc...

And finally worst of all is the system/community of modern archaeology/archeologists and their dogmatic adherence to certain theories that either they were taught in university and assumed as absolute truths or that were revealed by a "made man" so to speak with the "right letters after his name" if you know what I mean. Egos, careers, money, grants and reputations on the line cause massive resistance to new ideas/evidence until there is either so much overwhelming evidence and the people in power so old that they are replaced and newer theories take hold. Or alternatively when someone with the right prestige, from the right institution, with the right backing finally "discovers" what other lesser known figures have presented and claims it as his own and then suddenly everyone catches up.

Not to mention the amount of evidence, documents, relics, settlements, monuments etc... that were destroyed via conquests, invasions, wars, time itself that we may never have even a half accurate picture of our origins or ancient peoples/history.

So I think definitely with ancient history we are looking at a complete shit show of assumptions and tiny nuggets/fragments of evidence, mixed with egos, biases and specific world views that must be upheld. I think people are right to be sceptical a little bit at least of ancient history etc.. especially if you come from a nation that was conquered/invaded as we all know history is written by the victors.

But more modern history is a little more difficult to fake, not impossible certainly, and even when the evidence is real the documents/people could have their own biases and propaganda.
 
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Actually it's more that what is used as evidence for this stuff is usually the odd bit of incongruous evidence that goes against the majority of more reliable stuff.

And I say this as someone who adores history and archeology, especially out of place artifacts, like the roman artifacts found in America, tobacco beatles found in ancient Egyptian tombs, and the recently discovered evidence of Egyptian colonies in the British Isles.

I'm even down with the idea of there being lost technologies that used to be relatively common and fell out of use, then were forgotten, for whatever reason.

Geopolymerisatiom for instance is something we've discovered relatively recently that would explain a hell of a lot of the 'impossible' buildings from ancient civilisations, and it's not hard to imagine the knowledge for creating such building materials being lost over the millenia due to Wars and natural disasters.

None of us are arguing that the mostly agreed upon historys, based on the most reliable evidence going, areinfallible or anywhere near complete, but the big, deliberate, international manipulation of said historys, that stuff like the Tartary Empire relies upon, is just farcical compared to the evidence against it.

I'm not sure a productive conversation can be had with you, then, as you seem to be responding to me as though I'm the representative of everything everyone who has ever talked about this stuff has ever said, therefore obviously I'm wrong because you can shoot holes in it, while simultaneously admitting you believe in most of the things that I would be talking about. I no more need to argue with you every theory anyone has ever had about Tartary/lost tech/etc than I need to defend every right wing position to a Democrat. Clearly the weird stuff going in in history interests you but not enough to think about it independently, you'll just wait for someone official to tell you what they think, which is fine, that's what most people will do but it doesn't excite me to talk about this stuff with you if that's how you handle it.
 
I'm not sure a productive conversation can be had with you, then, as you seem to be responding to me as though I'm the representative of everything everyone who has ever talked about this stuff has ever said, therefore obviously I'm wrong because you can shoot holes in it, while simultaneously admitting you believe in most of the things that I would be talking about. I no more need to argue with you every theory anyone has ever had about Tartary/lost tech/etc than I need to defend every right wing position to a Democrat. Clearly the weird stuff going in in history interests you but not enough to think about it independently, you'll just wait for someone official to tell you what they think, which is fine, that's what most people will do but it doesn't excite me to talk about this stuff with you if that's how you handle it.
Alright, keep your shirt on, no need to have a hissy fit over it.

As you said, it's not that we don't share an interest here, so let's not get personal and start casting aspersions as to the originality of one another's thoughts.

I'm sorry if I came across as dismissive, I'm just trying to put across my view point specifically on the Tartary Empire theory, and why after looking into it I found the arguments unconvincing.

That said, I think we can agree that the basic principle of lost knowledge and the broad unreliability of a lot of assumed to be certain 'historical fact' is in actuality woefully incomplete, even if we disagree on the nature of some of the parts that are missing or inaccurate.
 
Alright, keep your shirt on, no need to have a hissy fit over it.

As you said, it's not that we don't share an interest here, so let's not get personal and start casting aspersions as to the originality of one another's thoughts.

I'm sorry if I came across as dismissive, I'm just trying to put across my view point specifically on the Tartary Empire theory, and why after looking into it I found the arguments unconvincing.

That said, I think we can agree that the basic principle of lost knowledge and the broad unreliability of a lot of assumed to be certain 'historical fact' is in actuality woefully incomplete, even if we disagree on the nature of some of the parts that are missing or inaccurate.

That's all well and good, sorry I came across like I'm in a hissy but I don't like when I dip my toe into something and then get told how wrong I am to entertain it at all because of all this stuff associated with it I didn't even know about, does that make sense? Like for me the Tartary empire stuff is like "wow, imagine if there was some empire wiped from the records and they did have secret knowledge?" but it's like HAHA YOU BELIEVE THAT A CATACLYSMIC MUDFLOOD HIT ALL AREAS OF THE EARTH? HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE? and I'm like... wait... no... is that possible? I don't even know what that means!

Though I dunno, it's like saying you're into Qanon but like what all does that entail? I dunno, they talk about demonic pedophiles and I look at Epstein and go "oh yeah I bet that happens" but then people are like "NOOOO QANON IS CRAZY LOOK WHAT THEY SAID" and I'm like alright, whatever. It's like the article in the OP and how it tries to tie anyone into this theory to anti-semitism lol, like wtf. Not saying you did that, tho...

But like this is why your arguments confused me so much, you'd tell me about this verifiable history in England and I'm sitting here like "I don't get it, this means everything I'm entertaining is wrong?" Like I wasn't jumping on the "all history ever is fake and gay" train if that's what this has to entail lol.

I do think the main problem with conspiracy theory stuff is the theory about what did it, it's like one thing to be like "maybe 9/11 didn't happen exactly as we believe" you know like what about those pages in the 9/11 report we don't get to read? Is Saudi Arabia involved? But then if you question it you get lumped in with people who say things like "oh, they didn't even crash planes, they relocated all the passengers to underground facilities, killed them and then flew plane-like missiles into the buildings to cover up all the Jew gold they stole" and it's like WTF, why do I need to be tied to this person, lol.